To Smack or not to Smack

[Tigger2]

Henry McLeish, Scotlands First Minister is trying to put a Bill through that children under the age of 3 should not be smacked. What are everyones views on this. And do you think this will lead to a total ban on smacking altogether?

If parents are not smacking because of their own temper then they are calm enough to use another form of discipline. As for the 'time out' thing, I've never used it as I actually don't believe in punishing children full stop. I only believe in educating them and engaging their co-operation (yes, just like teachers have to at school).

Batters
I have two children, both girls, one who is 4 years old by my current husband and one who is in her twenties (and has left home!) by my first marriage. With a young child I have always used distraction techniques, for example:if a young child is not keen to do something then teddy doing it makes it attractive or saying something like "shall we do a painting now" takes their mind off getting cross about something.This method does require constant input and you have to make sure the child's needs are met before you get on with your tasks, etc. Having routines helps but they must be flexible to take into account their differing daily needs, eg. they may be more tired on one day than another. I have found that giving the child all this kind of constructive and supervised play means that as they get older they know how entertain themselves in a worthwhile way and have great powers of concentration. The first few years are vital for establishing this kind of behaviour but it is time and labour intensive for the parent.I have also found that if you never lose your temper with your child they don't push you as there is no "result" for them. They learn very quickly that they cannot control you and the example of self-control you set is paramount.

I have given the subject a lot of thought lately, having been driven to total distraction by my sons biting (of me and no one else.) I considered whether a smack would help or not - other than to make me feel better for a nano second - I agreee that it would just be a release of frustration on my part. I tried biting him back instead on the advice of several other bitten mums, after all else had failed. He was bereft, I felt dreadful and he still bit me again anyway. Biting him back was probably no better than smacking him in the first place, and as it had no positive effect I dont see the point in smacking him so instead I have tried clapping my hands as loudly as possible by him then doing all the usual "NO" business and ignoring etc, hoping the shock of the noise would help. Some days I feel like a flamenco dancer and I am sure the neighbours must think I am beating him!

Sorry this is going on a bit. I really dont want to resort to smacking ds but I can appreciate that there may be a time when I feel it is the last or only resort. I hope that doesnt become the case but at 18 months I am bright enought to know that there will be much worse behaviour to come and can only keep an open mind

Ha ha, I type well for an 18 month old dont you think!

I find I feel very uncomfortable reading these comments. Before my child was born I was adamant I wouldn't smack. I never wanted my child to feel frightened of me or humiliated. Surely to smack more than once is a sign that it doesn't work as a method of discipline? I still believe it is wrong BUT, oh God, the reality of raising a child and putting that into practice is very different!

My daughter is VERY wilful , as was/am I. As a child, I was smacked and used to refuse to cry, instead defiantly counting the smacks and looking at whichever parent at the same time - believe me, I wasn't ill-treated but parents did smack more in the past!

And now I have smacked my daughter - aged 4 - on more than one occasion. And I have to say, they are not "loving smacks", whatever they are. They are smacks delivered through sheer irritation at repetitive naughty or unacceptable behaviour. She recently had such a serious tantrum that she bit my bare arm (leaving a mark that lasted a week) and I had to resort to a smack just to shock her into opening her jaw. What is the alternative in a situation like that?

Cam, out of interest do you work? I know distraction techniques are the correct solution but, I am a single parent working full-time. I am either shattered or do not have the time. These are not excuses just explanations.

As my mother says, I am sure some children can be brought up fairly easily without having to resort to a smack at any time. Some children/people are naturally more placid, compliant and laid back. But not all. Now, are my smacks - and they're not many - causing her biting etc? I just know that I feel that I have failed in this aspect of parenting. I'm not the mother I wanted to be.

Well Minx, I think you are being far too hard on yourself.

All I can say is to repeat that my very occassional smacks have had absolutely nothing to do with my frustration (I am a very calm person and very very rarely lose my temper). Sorry, but I just happen to think in extreme circumstances, a smack works. That has certainly been my experience anyway.

Minx- Absolutely none of us can live up to our parenting ideals (whatever these may be) 100% of the time and sometimes situations can be extra stressful- maybe we don't have enough support or are very tired or our child is going through a challenging phase. I think that many people find the reality of being responsible for children 24/7 sometimes differs hugely from rose-tinted imaginings pre-parenthood. It sounds to me like you are a very caring parent doing a good job with your daughter by analysing past situations and searching for the right approach in the future. That's all any of us can do.

I also think its worth highlighting that many of the people who are resolutely anti-smacking here do seem to have had unfortunate experiences in childhood over the issue. Minx, you talk about looking at the parent involved and counting the smacks. Well when I was a child, a short sharp smack was delivered to my bottom rarely and only when my behaviour was outrageous. I certainly never knew it was coming, there was no time to look at the deliverer and of course, it was only ever one. I cannot conceive of circumstances where a smack to my son would be any different and I would certainly never countenance repeated smacks for the same behaviour. Bugsy's experience too suggests smacking was used as more of a ritual. I do think many of us here are talking about smacking in different contexts.

One other thought, presumably all you anti-smackers are also strongly against controlled crying for anyone over say, 12 months (as logically reasoning/ encouragement would be preferred). Personally, I have never or would never leave my son to cry (although I'm certainly not going to label people who do "lazy" or whatever). There is no doubt in my mind that he would find that more distressing than a smack to his bot.

Message withdrawn

I think that helping your baby, toddler or child child to behave well involves a never-ending voyage of discovery. You have to learn as you go along, so it's right to question all forms of discipline or control, and discard the less effective ones.

There are just so many ways to control a child anyway. Personally, I put distraction, reasoning and rewards at the 'good' end of the spectrum, very closely followed by controlled crying and withdrawel of attention, then bribery - and shouting, smacking and sarcasm at the 'bad' end.

Each time I need to control my children, I'll use any one of these things, or a combination. I'm not perfect, just striving to be better. And of course some of the 'good' ways, like rewards, cannot be used too often, otherwise they are no longer as effective.

Although I have smacked my eldest I have seen that it is not a particularly effective form of punishment, except when it's an issue of serious safety. I'm trying extra hard not to resort to smacking with my youngest.

And pretty much the same goes for shouting at them, too. Personally, I feel a loud, prolonged shouting match with my son is a more violent and out of control method of discipline than a single light smack.

I have felt some guilt each time I've smacked my son, but I certainly don't feel guilt about my general approach to control. I think that as long as I strive to use 'good' forms of discipline with my sons, and follow this through, I am doing right by them.

Also while I'm thinking around this subject, and going back to Tigger's original question about whether smacking should be against the law, how about approaching smacking in the same way we approach smoking? ie not criminalising it as such but prohibiting it in many areas, ie by displaying 'no smacking' notices in playgrounds, shops, cinemas, etc etc, with help and advice telephone numbers.

I know that doesn't tackle smacking in the home, but it would help get the message across that smacking is not a desirable course of action. As I'm typing this, I'm not at all sure I would want to go this far along the anti-smacking line, however. It's just a thought.

I think that's a nice idea, Tigermoth. A couple of the drop-in groups that I take my boys to have notices or handouts asking that parents do not smack their children while at the group. It seems to work well- they are well attended and have a nice atmosphere.

Minx and Bloss
It is of course true that children have very different personalities so that some are more compliant, etc than others. Equally true is that parents have different personalities, values and levels of tolerance. I tend to think practically all behaviours of pre-schoolers are "normal" and I try to work around these rather than entering into confrontation with the child. If, using your example, my child is reluctant to have a bath I give her a reason to get in such as we can play with dolly in there. I like displays of independence in my child and I encourage her to make as many choices as possible.

I would just like to say a big "thank you" for the many suportive comments. I think it is true that we are probably a little too hard on ourselves (well, I am) and forget that the "good enough" parent is, well, good enough.

I must say that events over the last week have given me a renewed perspective on what is tolerable behaviour with my daughter - I don't think she has ever received so many cuddles and kisses and "I love you"'s in such a condensed period.

Lots of children orientated organisations that are on the internet have done research as to why smacking children is not a great idea. Check out Save the Children, Barnados, NSPCC and Early Years Education. I'm sorry I can't do the links but if you enter them into a search engine such as Google, they'll all pop up.
Some of these sites also offer alternative strategies for dealing with potential smacking situations.

I think that this thread has been really enlightening. Personally I disagree with smacking as a form of punishment however I am first to admit that I have hit my eldest ... not smacked ...I have lost my temper and that is something that I need to continue to work on. However I agree that verbal or rough agressive man handling are equally as negative and my goal each day is not to scream at ds. I am well aware how things have been worse lately...I have just had my third (number 2 was just 12months and number 1 was just 3). I found being heavily pregnant difficult. Hormonally I felt very aggressive, my fuse was so short and I lost my temper frequently...my rather over active 3 year old came in for a lot of flack...a typically day would be me being too exhausted to chase after the boisterous 3 year old as I was humping around the baby still not walking (as well as my 3 stone pregnancy weight)...he would get bored with pent up energy...then start to pull all of the cushions off the sofa, get nagged at for 1/2 hr, then he would start to get even more giddy and agressive, the baby would get pushed over, I would get jumped on (how the newborn was not born black and blue is a miracle)....I would screaam... he would scream back, then I would lash out in anger...he would cry so would I....then we would hug and say sorry a totally out of control emotional and physical situation....things are back to normal now new born is 6 weeks and everything is better.
All I can do is look back on of those final weeks of pregnancy in desperation...me not being in control and my sons behaviour deteriorating in front of my eyes with every scream and slap from me. I know that this debate has managed to get us to define the slap/smacking controlled method of discipline vs the agressive lost temper hit....and that is fine...the irony for me is although smacking is not an option that I would choose to use to discipline my child in a rational environment it is an agressive action (along with the screaming etc) that I dissolve into on occasions and regret bitterly instantly some suggestions as to how I can avoid going to this horrible place would be welcomed. Anyone been on an anger management course??...what are the top tips??

I'd love to learn about anger management too. Knakered, I don't think you should be too hard on yourself - the last stages of pregnancy must have been really difficult. How was your eldest affected? Have you been able to talk to him about it, and how being so tired and uncomfortable made you get angry more quickly than usual. I've foound that talking about things like this can be helpful from a much earlier age than you'd think - and it may help him to realise that it was the situation rather than the people that caused all the upset.

As a general question, do people apologize to their children? I do, if I think I was in the wrong.

yes things are much better now...it is important to kiss and make up ...a calm "resolved" air is an important final part of the discipline cycle. He is really great now...thank goodness...they can "bouce back"...but it really opened my eyes as to how directly linked his behaviuor was to my moods, energy, ability levels etc

I am also interested in the top tips. What I do when DS gets very active and starts not listening and missbehaving : Take a REAL deep breath during which I try to think : how bad is this really (how dangerous/very annoying is his action) and I try to respond accordingly. I have actually found that I have improved greatly... or is it DS who is now more "manageable" ?

A dilemma for you. I meet up with friends from a post-natal group fairly regularly and we have different views on discipline. At our last get together one of the children pulled my dd's ponytail (she's 12m but has a shock of hair). DD was slightly put out but largely unfazed, to my horror the hairpuller's mother hit her child hard on bare arms, saying "naughty, naughty". This reduced DD and the child to tears. I was horrified, the child isn't yet 12m and DD's ponytail complete with tweenie elastic was probably just too tempting. I understand that kids have to learn about hairpulling etc but it really upset me. Also I'm angry with myself because this incident took place in my home but I didn't say anything except a feeble "oh she's all right, don't worry".

The mother is a good friend and I know she is very strict, but I felt physically sickened by what happened, the child is a baby not a stubborn 2.5y old. I thought that the stats about 75% of people smacking their under 12m old must be wrong but maybe they are right after all... Sorry to ramble on but i'm a bit stressed out by this, the question is how do I handle this situation as I'm certain it'll happen again, bite my tongue or say nicely that I'd rather she didn't shout/smack in front of dd as she gets scared (if at my house)?

Hwr, difficult one, I agree. Personally, I'd stay out of it. What you witnessed was unacceptable to you, but it doesn't sound like battery or abuse.

I think that smacking is usually wrong and IMO and IME ineffective most of the time, especially at that age (although I have smacked and usually regretted it immediately). But I think that you'd be risking a big blow up with the other mother if you tell her that you don't agree with it or that you won't have it in your house.

Maybe she wouldn't always respond with a smack? Could it be that she felt a strong response was necessary as she was in your house and it was your child that was hurt? HTH

That did cross my mind, but she knows that I'm uncomfortable (understatement) with smacking. I think it bothered me more because both kids started yelling and her child did have a quite nasty red mark on her.

Anyway, incident is over I guess, so too late anyway..Thanks for the reply.

Having just read this thread re smacking I have to say I've found it very supportive. I have, on a very few occasions, smacked my eldest and felt guilty about it, especially as (like most of us) I always intended never to do so.
There's not much left to add, but one thing I would say is that it is really important that children do not assume from our actions that it is OK to hit another child if they don't like what that other child is doing - this is very easy for them to assume if they are smacked with any level of frequency. Even when she was very young I always made sure afterwards that I made it clear to my daughter how upset I was with having to smack her, and why I had done so, with lots of cuddles. It's not always easy to know when your child is old enough to understand your verbal explanations, but it's probably a lot earlier than most of us realise so worth doing even if you think they aren't taking it in.
Ultimately, of course, any alternative to smacking is better, if it works.
And no, Tigger2, gender doesn't have anything to do with how easy they are to manage or reason with! My eldest is as feisty as many boys, although she does have more of a preference for Barbies and anything pink than they do.