Sexual behaviour towards another child need advice urgently

[Worriedmum34758]

My DS (5) has came to me with something very worrying. He had a few friends over to play and he said that a girl (4) had "licked ***'s winkie". Im not sure what to do about this without causing a fallout (the girls mum is a friend). I do realise something has to be done but im not sure what. Please give me your advice.

People are entitled to opinions ChippinIn. Your attitudes may scare others, equally.

NO Aitch. Thelibster wasn't concerned about not advising anyone to ring Social Services. The exact words used were "sexual play is perfectly normal". Now, as we all know, that isn't true in a four year old girl.
Messing around, giggling hysterically, because a boy's penis is "Ewww"could be normal, but that is not "sexual play" , is it. That's just messing around.

We don't know what happened, because of the lack of information.

Not sure about the role of professionals, as I'm not one, and I don't know what mumsnetters do in their private lives.

i suppose that depends on your definition of sexual play, though. kids miming shagging = not normal. kids playing doctors and nurses = completely normal.

in fact this is reminding me of a time when my and my pals (three girls and a boy, all aged around five/six/seven) were playing doctors and nurses and we were 'discovered' by one friend's father, who was a senior policeman. i think we were miming having babies, i do remember a dolly being delivered successfuly, but his outraged reaction, his shame, his giving us a row and chucking us all out of the house made us all very confused and worried indeed.

we WERE just playing doctors and nurses. what he was worried about was, believe me, all in his head because of the job he did. but his response did give me my first taste of confused shame about my body and men's reaction to it. fortunately my parents were sensible enough to ask us (my sis and I) what we were doing before hitting the roof, and found nothing untoward in our explanations.

I've posted with this name on a similar thread, having experienced the SS side of things in a case very similar to this.

For a start, these are little children we are talking about. They are not "licking cock" or "performing blowjobs", as some helpful posters have suggested. 4 and 5 yo's generally do not have any sexual awareness at all. Their behaviour is led by discovering their own, and others bodies. The similarities, the differences.

Someone also pointed out that the average 4/5 yo girl wouldn't do anything like this. Yes, you're right, but there are extremes in normality. My next door neighbours little girls would probably do something like this (as would my ds) and they certainly aren't from an abused background.

The case I was involved with (very close family) involved 2 little boys. They were reported to SS. The sw was fresh out of college, had no experience of children at all, and immediately decided that this was clearly a case of abuse, as no normal child would ever lick a willy without having seen this regularly, or having being forced to do this by someone else.
The little boys involved were normal boys, extreme, yes, but normal, but went through months of counselling, having their family lives monitored, and, in one case, being treated completely differently by their parents, as they felt their son was some kind of sexual predator.
After 3 months, the original SW was unable to keep her appointment, and an older lady came in her place, she was so appalled that it had been reported to ss in the first place, went to her seniors, and within a week the whole sorry thing was over.
In her words, one incident does not make a case. Also in her words, at that age, licking willies, whilst not everyday, is something that is done by some children, and certainly does not mean that they have been abused. She felt it should be considered as harmless as little boys and girls comparing their bits, only some children take it a little bit further. Obviously it's not something to be encouraged, and the dc in question need a word from their parents about appropriate behaviour, but it is normal.

One of the boys used to be really sparky, outgoing and a real livewire is now a shadow of his former self. Doesn't want to go to friends houses, doesn't really want to play with anyone unless an adult has told him it's OK.

I hate threads like this, because the majority immediately cry "abuse" without knowing any back story at all, and without knowing the children at all.
At least some have been sensible about this.

kids playing doctors and nurses= completely normal
4 girl old girl licking a penis= generally not considered normal

yes hotdog, it was me that said children have no sexual awareness at this age. Which is why I was confused by the "sexual play is normal" comment

I couldn't agree more ChippinIn!

Well said.

Aitch, in your scenario, the father projected his own misplaced feelings of shame, outrage and anger onto the children themselves . That is not what anyone is doing here. NObody is angry or annoyed at the children. Some are simply saying that it is not a run-of-the-mill occurrence and sometimes not perfectly nornal

fgs, considered by who, sakura?

i have said i would not be in the slightest bit surprised, given dd and her friends' habit of licking EVERYTHING IN SIGHT that were a penis to hove into view, they might have a lick, at it. not because they want to give him a blowjob, but because, like K2, it is THERE. it's as much an act of defiance to lick somethin, it seems to me, really sticking your tongue out. something funny, not perverted.

it's just a LICK. not a blowjob. (unless you are doing it really, really wrong or unless the OP comes back with some more information).

sakura Where have I said that it is normal behaviour? Please stop putting words into my mouth. I try to steer clear of "normal" and "abnormal" because I feel it's "labelling". Especially when it comes to mental or emotional health. What is "normal" anyway? One person's "normal" in any given situation is not necessarily another's, and who is to say who is "right"? It's not that long ago that children were punished for masturbating because it wasn't "normal" men were criminalised for having sex with other men because it wasn't "normal".

For what it's worth here are some things that I consider "normal" for children.

It's "normal" for children to be fascinated by their own and other's body's
It's "normal" for children to play games such as "doctors and nurses" with their friends.
It's "normal" for children to mimic adult behaviour in all sorts of scenarios.

Right, so all I'm saying is that things have changed so much since I was a child that it is now more possible for a child to stumble across adult sexual behaviour. Pornography is poured into so many homes now by way of the TV and computers that it can be hard to police. How many people on here have had their children access something they'd rather they'd not on the computer? I know I have. You think you have the "nannynet" all set up and then, bang, some evil purveyor of filth finds a way of getting something through. I've heard countless horror stories from friends about their DC googling something totally innocent and coming up with filth! Maybe these kids are not old enough to be computer literate (though I know many who are) but they are obviously social creatures, they visit houses where other children maybe have older siblings, maybe they have older siblings themselves? We don't know. It's "normal" for children to be curious about sex. I am not convinced we have enough evidence to say there is "obviously" something "abnormal" aka "siniter" going on here.

*sinister

well no, in fact he didn't. that man had seen, i later learned, some terrible things, and it had rather distorted his view of what is normal and what isn't. he wasn't trying to harm us, quite the opposite. but had he lifted the phone to social services on the basis of what he had seen, god knows what might have happened to us all.

re the normal/not normal thing. i do think you have misinterpreted what thelibster was saying. but no doubt she will be back to clarify that at some point.

on the information that we have it might be normal, it might not be. therefore no-one should be advising anyone to start a SS investigation of the family without having given the parents (who are FRIENDS of the OP, remember) a chance to ask the girl and boy what they were doing. i know that you agree with this, hence the fact that i don't understand why you are disagreeing with thelibster, because as i understand it she agrees with you too.

x-post, sorry.

The comments made though by that child warrants further investigation. SS and/or Police are the best people to do this. Many investigations do not have enough information to suggest anything untoward has happened.This doesn't mean a situation like the OP's should be ignored.

People get so scared by Social Services when they are usually there to support a family, not condemn it.

well...first of all, I'm finding it really hard to imagine the backstory, and the logistics of a 4 year old girl deciding to do this.
I have a 4 year old DD.
IN her pre-school, boys and girls change for P.E in the same room. I'm just trying to imagine her deciding it would be a reasonable thing to do, that's all.

So yes, it may be childhood curiosity, and it may be the signs of something else. It's the certainty behind some of the replies, with the lack of info available, that is confusing me.

Anyway, we all agree she should inform the mother.

re normality anyway, much as kids miming shagging might not be normal it also isn't evidence that there is abuse in the home. like thelibster says, there is so much STUFF out there now, even on normal telly, it must be easy enough for kids to see things that they could later mimic. i know i have to switch the telly off if one of ours comes into the front room at night.

(mind you, am old enough to remember the outrage at the singing detective, which wouldn't raise an eyebrow now, beleive me... [prude])

'A "normal" child is easily distracted from sexual play and happily moves on to doing something else, a child with a sexual abuse history is more likely to be obsessed with sexual play and show relatively little interest in other distractions....'

'...If the OP said that the child became difficult when dropped off, persisted in the play when asked to stop and wouldn't do anything else during the play date, I would be far more inclined to think there was something sinister about the situation '

That is utter nonsense. Really. You are talking complete rubbish. You are completely wrong. How else can I express this?

And all of your speculation and admission that you know nothing really, about what happened here, in that long paragraph of yours, underlines the fact that a professional investigation will be necessary in order to find out what is going on with this girl. You would prefer to brush the incident under the carpet, mostly, it seems, because of your morbid fear of social services.

'two people who have been involved in such a case and have witnessed first hand the "ripple effect" of emotional damage throughout a whole family that such a case can result in. '
Apart from the idea I am forming of the sort of newspaper from which you get your impression of the world, it is very clear that you are far more concerned with the fallout on adults here than with the welfare of the girl who may or may not have been exposed to sexual abuse of some sort, and also that you are sure (because of your misguided notion of the traits of children who have been sexually abused and possibly a basic inclination to stick your head in the sand where sexual abuse of children is concerned.

"....and there may be something quite tragic in your own experience which leads to you being this way which is none of business and I shouldn't, and am trying not to, make judgements."
MAKING JUDGEMENTS?????
Your thought process here is reprehensible. Are you accusing me of having had some sort of tragic experience here? Do I have to defend myself and my perceptions here from some sort of accusation, some sort of 'nudge, nudge, wink, wink' implication of having a skewed view of sexual abuse of children as a result of an alleged tragic experience? You are treading on very thin ice here. Please look at what you have written and assure me that you did not mean what you plainly mean here. I hope you will ask MN to have your post deleted.

I will not be addressing any more of your posts on this thread. You have shown your true colours here and they are ugly.
Blather on.

And really, little girls of 4 are not naturally inclined to lick a boy's penis. The idea that we can dismiss any and all reports our children make to us because "children say the darndest things" leaves me gobsmacked. This is so not the equivalent of a child reporting the borrowing of a pair of shoes. Am really shocked.

"kids playing doctors and nurses= completely normal
4 girl old girl licking a penis= generally not considered normal"

Actually, according to the SW that my family saw, in a lot of cases, when accompanied with no other signs of abuse, it is normal. But that doesn't mean that most children will do it.

"sexual play is normal"

To an adult looking in on a situation, it looks like it's sexual, to a child however, it is normal discovery.

Where do you draw the line between normal exploritary behaviour, and child abuse?
Like Aitch, my ds will lick anything he can, God knows why. It's a quirk of nature. I don't know many other children who do, but I'm certainly not going to start assuming that he is some sort of deviant, or an abused child, because of it.

Like I said before, one incident, particularly when none of us know the child at all, does not make this abuse.

i have no difficulty imagining a scenario, tbh sakura. one of dd's pals LOVES scaring girls with his willie, he is a delightful child and from a good home. he just is a natural nudist...

could i imagine him and dd and pals running round their house squealing and doing this licking game and then him doing his willie act and getting licked? i really could. they would be given short shrift by parents as well, if they were found. but if not, i'd hope that no one would call SS without speaking to his mother or another mother.

Someone has already said she could have seen her parents at it. Pornography is another culprit.
HOwever, the proliferation of sexually explicit pornography in society does not somehow normalise children's reactions to it.

Aitch, I didn't say the man was trying to harm you, not at all. I said he was projecting his own shame onto you. Quite different things entirely.

"Like Aitch, my ds will lick anything he can."

what's a "good home" ? Many victims of child abuse come from "good homes"

Most children of 4 have got past their oral phase. Most will not lick everything they can.

It doesn't mean your child is a deviant if he licks things. It is a little strange but heyho.

The girl in the OP hasn't been identified as a child who goes around licking everything in sight.

You cannot assume since your child licks everything that this little girl is doing the same or for the same quirky reasons.

One incident is all anyone knows of here. It is all the OP apparently knows. Nobody here knows if there have been others. Nobody knows if it will happen again. You cannot dismiss it based on the certainty that it is just one incident. That certainty is not warranted. All there are is questions here. Questions that need investigation.

and i think there is some projection going on here as well, sakura.

"And really, little girls of 4 are not naturally inclined to lick a boy's penis." mathanxiety, do you have anything to back this up or are you just telling us what's what again? because my dd is no more or less inclined to lick a penis than a toe, i should imagine. she doesn't have a big scary taboo around penises, i can't think why she would, she's only four.