Sexual behaviour towards another child need advice urgently

[Worriedmum34758]

My DS (5) has came to me with something very worrying. He had a few friends over to play and he said that a girl (4) had "licked ***'s winkie". Im not sure what to do about this without causing a fallout (the girls mum is a friend). I do realise something has to be done but im not sure what. Please give me your advice.

Of course advanced sexualisation is one of the symptoms of abuse but in the context of same age children playing together and in the absence, or apparent absence, of any of the other, more usual symptoms ie aggression, regression, withdrawal etc. I wouldn't feel happy about putting the wheels of the SS in motion (and there's no stopping it once started) until I was a bit more certain I wasn't "going off half-cocked"

Oh for the love of pete --

Where are you getting your bizarre ideas about sexual abuse from? The 'usual symptoms' you declare missing here are pure baloney.

'Its a child at risk, trust me licking cock isnt something I have ever come across in my many years of working with kids, and its highly unlikely it just happened, but more likely some child has seen something his shouldnt have. It might have been he hasnt been abused but walked in on someothing, but either way something needs to be done.' Agree wholeheartedly with this post -- and like it or lump it, TheLibster, the only professionals who can investigate and find out what has been going on to inspire the penis licking by this little girl are social services.

Child protection is everybody's business (which was my point, TheLibster, in my 'ramblings') Penis licking is not normal (and I mean to use the word normal here, not the neutral 'usual'), which is why your reminiscences of playing doctor are not really relevant, unless you are suggesting that penis licking or any form of genitalia-lingual contact would form a part of the average game of doctors?

('We have even had cases where children have been taken into care ...' Here's that 'We' I was curious about, btw. It was from your post, not something I posted)

Hello Worried mum. I have been in a similar situation - mine was different in that there was injury involved. My advice would be to talk to the NSPCC first. The parents involved are probably not going to be a little bit upset, they are highly likely to be devastated. From my point of view it opened up all sorts of emotions - anger that someone had taken my child's innocence away, that I hadn't been able to protect her. It can also cause huge upset between friends, who may well not believe your son. Incidentally I was told by GP that it wasn't a social services issue because of the dc's ages (both 4 yrs) - I don't know if this is true. But would say I got the best advice from the NSPCC helpline.

mathanxiety I think it's important to remember that "there is no single child sexual behaviour that has been exclusively linked to child sexual abuse" (Johnson, 1999). All the time SS in this country are able to take a child into care for such spurious reasons as being heard to say a swear word, biting her nails, knowing that she was born by being "cut from mummy's tummy" and being cuddled for 'too long' on being dropped off at nursery (hey, come and take my DD2 right now) I will always err on the side of caution when it comes to involving SS without a great deal more evidence than the OP has posted here. Once a child has been taken into care there is no guarantee he/she will ever be returned to his/her parents even if charges are dropped. Yes, I know that the majority of SW are good at their jobs but, unfortunately, there is a significant minority who aren't and like good people and paedophiles, you can't tell by looking.

I, personally wouldn't be taking risks with the whole future of a child and his/her family on such little evidence. Particularly given the secrecy which currently surrounds family courts. There's more to "child protection" than being obsessed with the idea that any child, otherwise healthy and happy in mind and body, who exhibits one unusual or even "abnormal" sexual behaviour on one occasion is "obviously" being sexually abused and anyone who can't see that is wearing blinkers as far as I am concerned. Whether you like it or not the majority of seriously sexually abused children exhibit a variety of other behaviours such as aggression, regression, separation anxiety and withdrawal to name but a few, (I refer you to Johnson again or maybe Walker & Bolkovatz, Mrazek & Mrazek or Friedrich et al if you prefer.) And before you pounce on me for the use of "serious", someone on here posted that their child accessed pornography on their TV by typing in "fuk" on the advice of a school chum. That, I am very much afraid (though would think perfectly ludicrous)might be seen as "sexual abuse" in a country where the SS have the power to remove a child from it's mother on the grounds of "emotional abuse" because she failed to protect him from witnessing her H beating her up!

That is my opinion, I stand by it and I am as entitled to it as you are to yours.

At the end of the day, in this case, it is up to the OP, not you or I, to decide what action to take. I don't envy her and I am certainly not going to engage in behaviour on here designed to brow beat or bully her into my way of thinking. If you wish to do so, that is up to you. I think you're mental and you obviously think the same of me, so lets just leave it at that shall we?

I had a very similar situation with my DS5 and a friend's DS5 and DD4. They were in the care of my friend's DH at the time and as he was watching the rugby they just cracked on and did what lots of small children do - which was to look at eachother's bottoms.

It was entirely blamed on my DS and Social Services were called in. The other mother claimed that my DS was a "sexual predator" - which he is insane. When things weren't taken as seriously as she wanted she then started to run about telling people that I had clearly exposed my DS to depraved sexual acts (single parent = no morals?!) and that my father had abused me and my DS (total fiction).

I had to endure the humiliation of her weeping and wailing about the county and social services interviewing me in great depth. I won't go into greater detail of what else she did, but suffice to say that when the dust had settled 99% of people involved or merely onlooking came away thinking that she was a complete lunatic and that she had irretrievably damaged her children through her hysterical actions.

Surprisingly enough we haven't spoken since and that was 3 years ago.

The point that I'm trying to make is that it is far easier to just keep any action very low key unless you have real proof that there is something serious behind it all. Children mess and poke at eachother when they are little - it's totally normal and making a big deal out of it is often far more detrimental than just letting them crack on (obviously within reason). I think that giving your DS good guidelines about what is acceptable behaviour with regards to his body is probably all that is needed. It is usually just curiosity - they are just beginning to notice the differences between themselves and their friends.

'Whether you like it or not the majority of seriously sexually abused children exhibit a variety of other behaviours such as aggression, regression, separation anxiety and withdrawal to name but a few, '
Unless you are personally acquainted with the girl, then you don't know if this behaviour was a once off or if she has done it with any other boys, or whether she exhibits any of the traits of sexually abused or sexualised children. I assume you do not know this child, so your protestations about her not showing any of these traits or ever doing this before are just suppositions on your part really.

And fgs, TheLibster, it's not the Gulag or the KGB we're talking about here.

I don't think you're mental (sorry you feel that way about me but not really too concerned); I do think you have a bee of considerable size in your bonnet about social services and I think it's contributing to a mix up of priorities on your part.

thelibster

There is something you are missing in your arguments.
It is very important for you realise that over the years, children who have been sexually abused have not received the help and support they needed because people around them who knew, or suspected something, were 'worried about upsetting the family' or "worried about breaking up the family"
In other words, the needs and rights of the adults have always preceded the needs and rights of vulnerable children.

Thankfully, we are moving into a more enlightened century, where children are going to be seen as the priorities from now on.
Children are not taken away from families lightly, but I'm sure you'd agree that the mother of the child would like this unusual behaviour on the part of her daughter to be brought to her attention. As a mother myself, I would consider it an unforgivable betrayal if my friend didn't tell me my four year old daughter had licked a boy's penis.

asteria the OP is being advised to report it to the mother of the little girl, not to social services.

The inappropriate thing she may have seen might have been her own parents late one night when they thought she was asleep. Don't report it until you have talked to the parents.

yes, that's possible, seeker. I hope it's that. But whatever it is, I think we can agree that the little girl's behaviour is very bizarre, and out of the ordinary.

Sakura - not necessarily!! She's FOUR!! They do crazy stuff! It doesn't have to be that she's being abused!!

Like I said before - it would be great if the OP could elaborate. Such a big thread yet no more word from her. I wonder why?

Poppyella, as you can see from my last post, I didn't say that the girl has definitely been abused. It could be that she has stumbled across her parents....

However, what I think we can all agree on is that a four year old does not take it upon herself to lick a boy's penis. I have a four year old girl, and am surrounded constantly by four year old girls, and their mothers. Perhaps that is why I am so certain that this is bizaree behaviour. The natural reaction for little girls of this age would be to laugh and point.

I mean, a four year old who takes it upon herself to lick a boy's penis has seen something she shouldn't have.

Little girls masturbate, but they don't have any sexual consciousness for others. THat doesn't come until puberty. This girl has seen someone lick a penis IMO

At least I hope that's what happened, that she's seen someone else lick a penis. I don't want to believe she has been abused

mathanxiety None of us are personally acquainted with "this girl", and how are you jumping to the conclusion that it is "this girl" who has the possible sexual abuse problem? That's really strange when all we have to go on is the OP post which gives very little information tbh. It's not clear whether or not the OP's child came and told her after the children had left the play date or immediately it happened, while the children were still there. If the latter, what, if anything, was the OP's course of action? A "normal" child is easily distracted from sexual play and happily moves on to doing something else, a child with a sexual abuse history is more likely to be obsessed with sexual play and show relatively little interest in other distractions. We have no information as to whether the little boy got his "winkie" out and therefore "led" the sexual play, or whether the little girl somehow coerced him into getting it out. We have no information as to whether a "dare" game, also common at this age, was going on which involved all the children and this was one of the more bizarre "dares". This is the whole point of my argument for caution really. Just as important as the "fact" of her licking his "winkie" is how the whole situation came about and the general behaviour of the children involved, when it comes to trying to come to any conclusion about if one of the children is potentially "disturbed" and, if so, which one. Reading between the lines of the post I am deducing that there was little else "strange" about the situation. Two children coming around to play with their little friend is all we really have to go on. I could be wrong in this deduction, but so could others be in theirs. If the OP said that the child became difficult when dropped off, persisted in the play when asked to stop and wouldn't do anything else during the play date, I would be far more inclined to think there was something sinister about the situation but, until her son told her about the incident it appears that she thought the play date was progressing as normal. We have so little information really and all I am doing is putting down what I know about the general behaviour of sexually abused children in case it is of any help to the OP in her dilemma. It's her call ultimately as I've already said. You and others on this thread seem to have created a whole scenario from this one snippet of information and come to some very hasty conclusions about the little girl involved and seem to be urging what seems to me to be a very serious course of action on precious little real information or evidence that's all and I personally think that's very imprudent.

"And fgs, TheLibster, it's not the Gulag or the KGB we're talking about here." No it's not, but my point is that sadly there are several cases each year that would make one think the SS were the KGB. Some make it to the newspapers and whilst I agree that one can't take all newspaper stories at face value and know that it's difficult to report on such cases anyway because of the secrecy surrounding family courts, there's "no smoke without fire". I happen to know personally two people who have been involved in such a case and have witnessed first hand the "ripple effect" of emotional damage throughout a whole family that such a case can result in. (Obviously can't, and won't be goaded into' expanding here) We can all only give advice on the basis of the information provided and our own experience/knowledge.

Sorry about the term "mental" it was not nice and said too flippantly (can't really get tone of voice over on the net) Your wording was much better. I think you have a bee of considerable size in your bonnet about sexual abuse and I also think it's leading to a mix up of priorities here. But we all bring with us to this forum our own personal life experiences and there may be something quite tragic in your own experience which leads to you being this way which is none of business and I shouldn't, and am trying not to, make judgements.

It does not mean she has been abused or has seen someone giving a blow job - FGS.

4 year olds are weird - some of them lick anything! Friends kids (4 & 6) were playing at the weekend - they wont stop licking me FGS - apparently it's hilarious so then they were rolling around on the floor licking each other (faces, hands, necks) and one says well lick my bits then I'll lick your toes...body parts mean nothing to them at this age...

Why oh why do so many people have to see abuse when it's simply kids being kids. We used to play the 'money box' game when I was a kid - none of us were abused - just stupid!

none of my* business, obviously

Sakura Of course it is bizarre behaviour and most of us on here are saying that it should be mentioned to the mother of the little girl. It seems that you think some of us are saying it should just be ignored. A few people are saying that the OP shouldn't say anything to mother but go straight to SS, others are saying that is too much of a knee-jerk reaction at this stage.

ChippingIn
I'm not saying she has or hasn't been abused. I think that thelibster is being very off for suggesting it's normal behaviour, when it's not. It's strange.

Your example is perfectly normal, in the context you've described it, but that is NOT how the scenario has been described in the OP.

The fact that the boy took it upon himself to mention it to his mother means that he was taken aback himself.

thelibsters made an analogy to playing doctors and nurses up the thread, which I thought had no relevence here.

"However, what I think we can all agree on is that a four year old does not take it upon herself to lick a boy's penis. "

i'm with chippingin here, sakura. i really do not agree that a four year old girl wouldn't like a boy's penis without something else going on in the background.

honestly and truly, in the last few months my 4 year old dd and her pals have ALL been licking each other, god knows why, but they have. girls and boys, they come up behind each other and lick necks, faces, hands etc. they do it to us too. it's just a phase they are all going through, for some weird reason.

i do think the bigger question is 'what was the winkie doing out in the first place, ds?' but the OP has provided NO further information.

however i genuinely do not think it is that unlikely that dd or her male and female friends would end off 'doing a lick' (which is what they call it) to a winkie that was out and about, i really don't. it's a funny dare thing they have going at the moment, i wouldn't rule anything out. (apart from sexual abuse).

funnily enough, imo this is related to that other thread insofar as this is an age when children are beginning to learn about boundaries, about private places etc, and it will depend on how their parents are speaking to them, or indeed whether they have yet, whether this would be a taboo action or not. so a four year old girl may not have had that conversation with her parents, while a five year old boy at school may have done. and vice versa. impossible to knwo without more information.

but if you are really worried, worriedmum, i would definitely speak to your friend first. i wouldn't be horrified if dd had done this to someone else (wouldn't even be particularly surprised tbh) but it would be the springboard to an important chat about appropriate behaviour etc.

"The fact that the boy took it upon himself to mention it to his mother means that he was taken aback himself."

my dd told me that her friend let her other pal borrow her dress up shoes... i don't think she was taken aback, she was just relating stuff that had happened while playing.

just to be utterly clear, here is the OP.

"My DS (5) has came to me with something very worrying. He had a few friends over to play and he said that a girl (4) had "licked *'s winkie". Im not sure what to do about this without causing a fallout (the girls mum is a friend). I do realise something has to be done but im not sure what. Please give me your advice."

it is worriedmum who thinks this is very worrying. all the boy said was that a girl had licked a pal's winkie. nothing means anything without further info.

Worriedmum - hope you didn't miss Anonom's post at 23:17 yesterday. Seems she had some good advice for you. And am very sorry you and your dc went through that Anonom .

yes, fair enough Aitch, but remember my to take my posts in the context of replying to a poster someone who is certain that there is nothing amiss here.

I just don't believe you could be so certain with such little information.

The worriedmum is worried, and I think she's right to question, or wonder. As I've said, she should mention it to the mother.

do you mean thelibster? she's not certain nothing is amiss, is she? i can't be bothered reading again but what i've got from her posts is that she would not leap to advise anyone to call SS without more information because there could be perfectly reasonable explanations.

i do sometimes wonder if the advice on here regarding these matters (and others, tbh) is skewed by virtue of the professionals on here. on the one hand a professional voice is fantastic, really, but otoh professionals in this area are already dealing with children damaged in one way or another, so their alarm sensors are likely sensitised. one might say 'i have never heard of a child licking cock in all my years etc etc' but actually in 'normal' (and i use that word advisedly) households it may be happening but because it is a completely un-loaded act (two kids mucking around because they are obsessed with licking, for example, rather than they are obsessed with cock) there is no harm, no foul, and it never (quite rightly) reaches the eyes of the professionals.

it's like... doctors are very good with sick people, iykwim?

oh, and agree with you regarding having a word with the mother. certainly of the boy who was licked, in the first instance. it should be up to her to deal with, i would have thought. this is a very third hand story we have here.

Aitch - exactly (re the shoes). Kids will mention all kinds of things - it doesn't mean they are 'disturbed' by it.

Quite frankly if a 4/5 year old had said that to me, I would have said "Eurgh - you lot are horrible licking everything in sight, you really shouldn't" and not given in another thought. It's all bits/willies/bums/wees/poos at this age - it's just daft kids stuff and not an indicator of sexual abuse.

Have you not noticed that kids this age say things that make you & in that if an adult said it, it would be sexual when it is completely clear they have no idea that it's 'wrong'.

IF and it's a big IF - the 5 year old had seemed upset by it I would have talked to him more about how/why/when etc and then talked to the Mums to let them know - all this flapping over ringing social services is just hysterical nonsense.... it scares me that so many of you are so quick to assume the children must come from a home where they are being abused.