Maybe got it down to 3 girl names

[Sansa87]

We are due in three weeks and have really been struggling with names.

I think we’ve got it down to three names that we both like.

Francesca,
Paige,
Brooke.

Middle name is Vera Jean after grandmothers.

Opinions, (please don’t be too brutal 😂)

DacwMamYnDwad

@itwillallbeokay, I understand where you are coming from.
I feel the same way about Welsh, Irish or Scottish names being used when there is only a tenuous connection.

Francesca, Isabella and Sophia are now mainstream girls' names in the UK, as are Amelie and Elodie.

See I think this is my main issue, as some posters on this thread have pointed out, now names like Francesca are mainstream in the UK, with some posters not even knowing that the name is an Italian name. It's that loss of the heritage and what it means, it's genuinely saddening to see and it's happening more often to more and more Italian names as they become more popular over here. I've known people call their girls, Luca, not knowing it's an Italian boys name, and seen a young girl who was calles Chiara, except the parents weren't italian and didn't know how to spell it so spelled it Khiara. Every time someone posts on here asking for unique or unusual names, someone always suggests Italian names. It's seeing names that mean something to you and your family and community historically just become reduced to being 'unique' or 'quirky' and all that history and meaning and connection gets lost.
A poster suggested previously that maybe people who aren't in Italy may be more likely feel this way, and that might be true to an extent, although I know many Italians living in Italy who feel the same way. But for myself, I've spent my life living between Scotland and Italy, grew up biligual, have dual nationality, and am very much proud to consider myself both Scottish and Italian. Currently I live in Scotland, and yes absolutely, feel like keeping that connection and link while I am here is really important to me. Names are an important indicator of identity and heritage, people know immediately from my name that Im Italian before I even open my mouth. Seeing Italian names lose that meaning because they get used my non-Italians to the point that people don't even realise they're Italian names anymore can be quite upsetting.

This thread is off the charts.

Startling ignorance on display.

@itwillallbeokay go back far enough, and you’ll find it is the Italians ‘guilty’ (your ideology, not mine) of ‘cultural appropriation’ here.

@itwillallbeokay

It seems implausible to me that the same people who’d be pro-immigration (as I am), and perhaps who are children of immigrant parents, are weirdly nationalistic, divisive and separatist about the resultant cultural enrichment. Most people would see that as one of many positives.

Francis is from the late Latin Francisco, meaning the Frenchman (!) and ultimately from the Germanic (eek-cultural appropriation??!!) tribe of the Franks, so named because of their spears.

St. Francis of Assisi popularized the name and feminine variants in WesternChristian Catholic Europe, he was born Giovanni but his father nicknamed him Francesco due to his admiration for the French (!!!). Is this problematic?

There is no such thing as a ‘pure breed’ Englishman. England, as island nation, is and always has been a melting pot due to a high density of invasions - angles, Saxon’s, jutes, Picts, celts, Normans, Vikings, the Spanish Armada, and, indeed, Romans. We spent a significant amount of time governed by Latin speakers, fgs. Indo-European languages share common ancestors, among them the classics (Latin and Ancient Greek), and all of these numerous contributing threads is why the English language is so rich, and has the greatest number of near-synonyms in the world.

If you feel able to speak about cultural and linguistic purity, maybe you should (to use what I predict would be your own language), check your privilege when speaking to people who can never stake a claim to such a thing?

There is no such thing as a ‘pure breed’ Englishman. Go back far enough, and we are all immigrants. This is why Nationalistic fervour is based on such bollocks, it’s such baseless and ignorant pride. Heritage is never clear-cut, ‘pure,’ or reason to feel particularly special.

Then there is our religious cultural heritage, of which the successful spread of Roman Catholicism played a massive part. If we were like you, we could claim similar injury from your denial of our religious cultural heritage.

Op, don’t listen to these people. They’ve worked out that oppression = currency, it’s a power dynamic designed to make you walk on eggshells for something as innocuous as naming your baby, of course they can be choose to be offended but the reality is that not many people are that much of a twat as to choose to feel personally upset about what another person calls their baby. To my mind, the grossest thing about this thread is that the oppression is imagined and appropriating the dynamics of genuine subjugation to win what?? A power play on mumsnet??

Francesca is a lovely name, call your child that if you wish.

[quote Edenember]@itwillallbeokay

It seems implausible to me that the same people who’d be pro-immigration (as I am), and perhaps who are children of immigrant parents, are weirdly nationalistic, divisive and separatist about the resultant cultural enrichment. Most people would see that as one of many positives.

Francis is from the late Latin Francisco, meaning the Frenchman (!) and ultimately from the Germanic (eek-cultural appropriation??!!) tribe of the Franks, so named because of their spears.

St. Francis of Assisi popularized the name and feminine variants in WesternChristian Catholic Europe, he was born Giovanni but his father nicknamed him Francesco due to his admiration for the French (!!!). Is this problematic?

There is no such thing as a ‘pure breed’ Englishman. England, as island nation, is and always has been a melting pot due to a high density of invasions - angles, Saxon’s, jutes, Picts, celts, Normans, Vikings, the Spanish Armada, and, indeed, Romans. We spent a significant amount of time governed by Latin speakers, fgs. Indo-European languages share common ancestors, among them the classics (Latin and Ancient Greek), and all of these numerous contributing threads is why the English language is so rich, and has the greatest number of near-synonyms in the world.

If you feel able to speak about cultural and linguistic purity, maybe you should (to use what I predict would be your own language), check your privilege when speaking to people who can never stake a claim to such a thing?

There is no such thing as a ‘pure breed’ Englishman. Go back far enough, and we are all immigrants. This is why Nationalistic fervour is based on such bollocks, it’s such baseless and ignorant pride. Heritage is never clear-cut, ‘pure,’ or reason to feel particularly special.

Then there is our religious cultural heritage, of which the successful spread of Roman Catholicism played a massive part. If we were like you, we could claim similar injury from your denial of our religious cultural heritage.

Op, don’t listen to these people. They’ve worked out that oppression = currency, it’s a power dynamic designed to make you walk on eggshells for something as innocuous as naming your baby, of course they can be choose to be offended but the reality is that not many people are that much of a twat as to choose to feel personally upset about what another person calls their baby. To my mind, the grossest thing about this thread is that the oppression is imagined and appropriating the dynamics of genuine subjugation to win what?? A power play on mumsnet??

Francesca is a lovely name, call your child that if you wish.[/quote]
@Edenember I've already apologised and said I was wrong. All your points are absolutely correct so Thankyou for making them and I have taken the on board.
I felt absolutely battered down with the responses yesterday.
I have been mocked, told my views are laughable, called a toad etc etc
As I've said I will educate my Italian family and lots of Italians I know that we have no right to feel protective over 'our' names.
If you have read the thread I have never said to to OP not to use the name I just made her aware of the cultural implications of using it I.e how some Italians might feel.
Anyway now I have been told by non Italians on this thread that I am wrong and have absolutely no right to feel this way, I have accepted this and I said I will never ever say it again.
I have apologised to the OP for making her aware of it in the first place. Hopefully that's the end of it.

@itwillallbeokay, ‘Frances’ isn’t from an English root word. It is less commonly used than Francesca in the U.K. Read my previous post. All these names are commonly used throughout Europe. England doesn’t really have ‘English’ names due to our history and language. European names are entwined because of the way countries histories are entwined. I am a pretty left leftie and have been called woke on here before, but I also studied language and this appropriation claim is ridiculous.

For a start, what if someone had a best friend called Francesca? They wouldn’t need ‘heritage’ to name their daughter after that friend. Secondly, all these names are used widely in each of their forms across Europe, some more so than others as pronunciation suits that nations language or something historic means that name becomes well liked. Thirdly, many people don’t know their heritage. We’re all likely to have someone European in our blood because we ARE European.

Film made the name more popular in the 1940s, but there are Francesca’s recorded from the 15th C in the U.K.- only a century after it became popular in Italy and 2 centuries after it started being used. There are a higher number of Frances’ recorded in the U.K. prior to 1940 and more Francescas who would have been called Frances day to day, but their official name was Francesca and some would have been called that or a nickname related to that by family.

None of the Francesca’s I know from the U.K. have Italian heritage. One is Catholic. When history of use for a name is so long, in a similar geographic area and has little difference in beginning (200 years) alongside several different versions across that geographical area, it’s totally normal this name and certain versions preferred by that nations tongue will be used. It’s always pronounced a bit differently, like when you hear a Welsh name spoken by an English person or a Greek name spoken by a Russian. So yeah, Alice in n Italian tongue will b pronounced in an Italian accent and in England, it’ll be our English Germanic sounding tongue. There’s no importance in that, it’s just people’s tongues moving in the way they’re used to.

So, to recap, Frances used to be popular in the U.K. but has been losing that for 20 years off a century when Francesca was popularised by film and started becoming more popular. However, it has been used since the 15th century.

Thanks edenember. Just seen your posts, all fantastic points.

@MagpieSong

Thanks edenember. Just seen your posts, all fantastic points.

Absolutely all your points are completely correct. I have definitely been educated on this thread. As I said I have been called a toad, twat, mocked and laughed at. I feel completely battered. I've realised I was wrong in highlighting the fact that some Italians might be upset by non Italians using 'their names'. This is very wrong and they have no right and should absolutely not feel this way. I will show my family and the Italians I know this thread so they can be educated as well. I've already apologised to the OP. Hopefully that will be the end of the mocking and nastiness aimed my way. I will definitely never make the same mistake again.

itwillallbeokay please don't feel battered. Of course you are not wrong to feel some attachment to names which were originally Italian. I know an Italian woman whose name is Valeria. To me that is still a very Italian name and I would be wonder if a British person with that name had links to Italy. But Francesca has been a commonly used name in the UK for a really, really long time. This is a fact. This is what people have been trying to say to you on this thread, not that you shouldn't feel some personal connection to names which are or were originally Italian, but that Francesca has been well used over here for a long time by people of many different heritages. I said further upthread that the two Francescas I know are both of German heritage. Also, with regard to Alice, a quick google on a couple of different websites suggests that Alice became a name in many different countries following the publication of Alice In Wonderland. If this is correct, and regardless of the different pronunciation, then Alice has been used in Italy for less time than Francesca has been used in the UK.

Please don't feel battered. Carry on feeling pride at the Italians' beautiful names whilst accepting that over the centuries other nationalities have also taken those names because they appreciate their beauty too. Francesca and Alice both being cases in point.

I have a Paige, it’s a beautiful name!

@CatkinToadflax

itwillallbeokay please don't feel battered. Of course you are not wrong to feel some attachment to names which were originally Italian. I know an Italian woman whose name is Valeria. To me that is still a very Italian name and I would be wonder if a British person with that name had links to Italy. But Francesca has been a commonly used name in the UK for a really, really long time. This is a fact. This is what people have been trying to say to you on this thread, not that you shouldn't feel some personal connection to names which are or were originally Italian, but that Francesca has been well used over here for a long time by people of many different heritages. I said further upthread that the two Francescas I know are both of German heritage. Also, with regard to Alice, a quick google on a couple of different websites suggests that Alice became a name in many different countries following the publication of Alice In Wonderland. If this is correct, and regardless of the different pronunciation, then Alice has been used in Italy for less time than Francesca has been used in the UK.

Please don't feel battered. Carry on feeling pride at the Italians' beautiful names whilst accepting that over the centuries other nationalities have also taken those names because they appreciate their beauty too. Francesca and Alice both being cases in point.

Yes I get your point. Unfortunately many Italians including my family and other Italians very much view it still as Italian name. They and I are obviously wrong to feel this way. As I said I have been told and educated a lot in this thread and completely accept others views. I will pass all the points and views on to the Italians I know so they not will not upset or offend any non Italians.

"I've known people call their girls, Luca, not knowing it's an Italian boys name"

I have a niece with this name. We are well aware it's a boys name. It's a nod to where are ancestors emigrated from.

I will pass all the points and views on to the Italians I know so they not will not upset or offend any non Italians.

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I'm not upset or offended - just rather bemused!

*our

@CatkinToadflax

I will pass all the points and views on to the Italians I know so they not will not upset or offend any non Italians.

I can only speak for myself, of course, but I'm not upset or offended - just rather bemused!

That's lovely to hear. 🙂👍

@Tallybeebloom thanks for your post it is a very interesting and thoughtful explanation. Not something i have thought much about before.
In England names and many other cultural areas like food are so fluid. I guess part (and I would say a strength) of the culture is to embrace change and new ideas. This oftern results in inspiration by other cultures or ideas.

Even if the names are not known as Italian here surely the most important thing for Italians to retain the culture is to remember and value the name themselves which you clearly do.
While it is remembered by people of that culture surely it will not be forgotten or devalued because others use it too?

@itwillallbeokay, none of it was meant nastily, you don’t need to feel battered. There’s nothing wrong for carrying pride in a name’s origin, but there is an oddness in not realising how entwined European history is. I’d say it’s unusual, but we have plenty of people in the U.K. who have no idea whatsoever and no real cultural claim to anything much if they’re English as we’re all mixes of immigrant blood (though many people are blind and deaf to that unfortunately). Many people do know the origin of the name they choose, some people know the meaning as well, so I wouldn’t feel it’s history is being erased across the board. It’s a beautiful name with a long history of being loved in several European countries, just as the Greek Anastasia is famous for its being used in Russia. I find the use of a boys name for a girl weird when there are beautiful,female versions, but I know the Americans seem to do it. We have a few names we use for both - Robin, Evelyn etc. but, on a personal level, still agree with you it’s a bit weird to use a boys name for a girl.

I think we Europeans often think we are more distinct cultures than we are. There are differences, but there are so many shared moments that many things become quite shared or fluid. Historically, we’ve traded, had the same kings and queens, shared religions and festivals, brought each other new foods to try, experienced widening ‘common foods’ as they’re traded and called each other by similar names and there’s something quite lovely about some of that (despite the gruesome history involved too).

[quote MagpieSong]@itwillallbeokay, none of it was meant nastily, you don’t need to feel battered. There’s nothing wrong for carrying pride in a name’s origin, but there is an oddness in not realising how entwined European history is. I’d say it’s unusual, but we have plenty of people in the U.K. who have no idea whatsoever and no real cultural claim to anything much if they’re English as we’re all mixes of immigrant blood (though many people are blind and deaf to that unfortunately). Many people do know the origin of the name they choose, some people know the meaning as well, so I wouldn’t feel it’s history is being erased across the board. It’s a beautiful name with a long history of being loved in several European countries, just as the Greek Anastasia is famous for its being used in Russia. I find the use of a boys name for a girl weird when there are beautiful,female versions, but I know the Americans seem to do it. We have a few names we use for both - Robin, Evelyn etc. but, on a personal level, still agree with you it’s a bit weird to use a boys name for a girl.

I think we Europeans often think we are more distinct cultures than we are. There are differences, but there are so many shared moments that many things become quite shared or fluid. Historically, we’ve traded, had the same kings and queens, shared religions and festivals, brought each other new foods to try, experienced widening ‘common foods’ as they’re traded and called each other by similar names and there’s something quite lovely about some of that (despite the gruesome history involved too).[/quote]
Absolutely you are completely right.
I can see you and others have spent a lot of time and done a lot of research on this subject.
All I ever highlighted was in my experience a lot of Italians may feel a certain way about non Italians using an 'Italian' name.
I have been educated on this thread about why feeling this way is wrong. As I said I will never express this view again as being called a toad, a twat, nasty fucker and mocked etc has not been a pleasant experience. But as you and others have said I should not feel battered by this.
I've apologised to the OP as I didn't want to offend her or others. Luckily some have only felt 'bemused' my mine and others feelings on non Italians using 'our' names.
As a non Italian on this thread said I'm allowed to still have pride about Italian names but have to also understand that other nations have now taken these names because they appreciate their beauty too.
So I accept this and have passed this knowledge on to my family and Italian friends.
That's all I can do. Hopefully that's the end of the matter 👍😊

@MagpieSong your well meaning patience is commendable but wasted on this person, or rather just feeding whatever this is. Victims gonna victim, if she were to (actually) accept any of this it would mean an end to the attention loop. Sardonic mock-martyrdom is a way to keep that going despite the protests of ‘hopefully it will be an end to it.’ I feel for the OP who understandably has just left in utterly bafflement at an innocent question about baby names being hijacked in this way.

[quote Edenember]@MagpieSong your well meaning patience is commendable but wasted on this person, or rather just feeding whatever this is. Victims gonna victim, if she were to (actually) accept any of this it would mean an end to the attention loop. Sardonic mock-martyrdom is a way to keep that going despite the protests of ‘hopefully it will be an end to it.’ I feel for the OP who understandably has just left in utterly bafflement at an innocent question about baby names being hijacked in this way.[/quote]
Honestly whatever I say or do you just want to have an argument and be nasty.
I've accepted others views and have taken them on board. I agree with what people are saying and hadn't obviously spent as much time in researching things as they have.
I can't really do much else. All I ask is you please just put an end to it now.

@itwillallbeokay happily.

[quote Edenember]@itwillallbeokay happily.[/quote]
😊👍👍

Hi guys,

So I ended up giving birth to a beautiful baby girl via emergency c-section on 17th May.

We chose the name Francesca (Frankie) in the end and it suits her perfectly.

I was thinking of this thread, & I am concerned that it will be my fault if Italy beat us on Sunday now, so I want to apologise in advance.

Ah congratulations op, it’s so nice when we get updates like this. I think you made a good choice, Francesca is beautiful!!