Gaelic names spelling and grammar

[ShanKayak]

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

Yes, I'd certainly recommend it

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

For those interested in the grammar, Cruinnscríobh an Ghaeilge is excellent. I still am was a total nerd for the Tuiseal Ginideach, such satisfaction when you get it and the other grammatical rules!

Thanks @HeyGirlHeyBoy
Nualéargais.ie is also useful for grammar.

For anyone with an interest in Irish, this is a great book. It's so , so interesting.

32 Words for Field by Manchán Magan

Thanks everyone, that's great!

@Apileofballyhoo
As SeanCalleach mentioned it's the original 'Teach yourself Irish' by Myles Dillon and Donncha Ó Cróinín that's in the Munster dialect.
There's a later version in standard Irish I think.

For primary school children the Séideán Sí website offers learning games online - it allows you to choose a dialect before starting, which I like.

@mathanxiety asked the OP if all languages progress their way out of declensions.

This is an important point, getting back to the original question, "why do forms like "Mhairi" and "Hamish" exist in Scotland?"
Languages often tend to lose declensional forms when under pressure from an analytic contact language. For Scots Gaelic, there was pressure from English and Norman French from roughly the 12th/ 13th century, and in 1602 - over 400 years ago - study of Gaelic was banned in Scotland. So it is possible that before she fell silent, "lowland Gaelic" may have adopted oblique forms of noun, including personal names.
Sometimes this effect happens with one or two words or a group of nouns.
Eg in Scots Gaelic "taigh" instead of "teach".
In Irish, for a while "Erin" instead of "Éire", and note that it is this Anglicisation of a mash-up of the oblique forms that is used as a personal name.

This is only one possibility though, the others would be:
Lost patronymic prefixes such as Mac or No
Informal patronyms/ matronyms
Lost prefixes such as "Maol"
With Hamish, as @florascotia2 says, this could be in fact an English name that merely happens to sound similar to Sheumuis.

Sounds like a specification for a fun Ph.D.

Oh god Cruinnscríobh na Gaeilge

With respect, I did not say that "With Hamish, as @florascotia2 says, this could be in fact an English name that merely happens to sound similar to Sheumuis."

I said that Hamish was an Anglicised form of the vocative case of the Scottish Gaelic name Seumas. (That's the usual Scottish Gaelic spelling.)

I said that Hamish was 'English' as opposed to Gaelic because another poster had concocted a very, very strange argument saying that Seamus (variously spelled, IIRC) was Irish Gaelic while Hamish was the equivalent in Scottish Gaelic.

I was trying to point out that Seumas was Scottish Gaelic and very similar to Irish Seamus, and that Hamish was just an English language version of a Scottish Gaelic name.

Technically speaking, Gaelic was not banned in Scotland in 1602. (That was in Ireland, I think - but Irish Mumsnetters please correct me.)
But it was strongly discouraged by a series of measures in the 17th cent, and then other pressures led to further decline.

• 1609 Statues of Iona say that the eldest sons of Gaelic speaking chiefs must be sent to school in the Lowlands so that they can learn English.
• 1606 No Gaelic-speaking chief could inherit unless he could ALSO read, write and speak English. (Since all the chief's followers spoke only Gaelic, many/most Highland chiefs continued to speak Gaelic as well as English for the next 100 years and more. they were bilingual. Many spoke French also, and some knew Latin.)
• 1616 Parish schools (closely linked to Church of Scotland) powerfully promoted learning in English, but accepted that pupils also knew Gaelic
• 1700s Missionary schools in Gaelic-speaking areas strictly encouraged the use of English. By 1750s they banned the use of Gaelic even at playtime.
• Later 1700s there were Gaelic speaking chapels in many lowland areas - this shows that Gaelic had been brought by "economic migrants" to rapidly-industrialising areas, and that migrants still felt that Gaelic was the best way of expressing their beliefs.. And also a Gaelic translation of the Bible. The language was declining, but it was still alive and important. By the later 1800s, there were also many informal 'institutions' such as the 'Highlandmen's Umbrella' - a Sunday meeting place for Gaelic speakers in Glasgow under a massive railway bridge close to Central Station.
• Early 1800s, Gaelic-speaking schools were established by the Gaelic Society and others. But they also strongly encouraged English
• 1870s compulsory state education in English only. This was the final and almost fatal blow.

second item on the list should be 1616

@florascotia2 thanks for corrections. I love the LearnGaelic website you mentioned. Are you a native speaker yourself?

The "No Béarla" fellow.

@SeanCalleach

The "No Béarla" fellow.

@docugirl Manchán Magan I mean.

Alas no. Earlier family generations were, and oldest neighbours, and there's a bit of a local revival among younger people in the area where I live, which is good.
But am very, very aware of how much I don't know.

SeanCalleach I didn't really mean text books for learning the dialects, and I misread your response even though I actually quoted it! I meant books (or websites) where the differences are set out, including minor ones within the dialects, as opposed to a text book for learning a dialect. Thanks anyway.

For primary school children the Séideán Sí website offers learning games online - it allows you to choose a dialect before starting, which I like.

Also to piggyback off this, you can download the Bua na Cainte online programmes for free atm. They're very popular and easy to follow imo.

.. @mathanxiety asked the OP if all languages progress their way out of declensions.

@SeanCalleach
I am pretty sure I did not.

I made an objection to the implications of the term 'progress' away from differentiation between declensions. I phrased my objection in question form, but that was not my question.

The implication I objected to is that those languages which have dropped differences between declensions are somehow further progressed than languages which retain them.

With Hamish, as @florascotia2 says, this could be in fact an English name that merely happens to sound similar to Sheumuis.

@SeanCalleach
Florascotia didn't say that.

She said that Hamish is an Anglicisation of the Scottish nominative form of Seumas - 'A Sheumais', pronounced (loosely) 'A Haemish', and out of ignorance of the nominative used as a name unto itself is how Hamish was born.

@mathanxiety thank you for the corrections.
Technically it is unlikely that the vocative as such is the source of confusion, although that explanation is widespread across baby name websites.
The genitive form is often (but not always) identical to the vocative. And it is often used like this:
Mairi has a daughter Caitrìona
So does Morag.
Máire's daughter gets called Cait Mhairi.
Morag's daughter gets called Cait Mhoraig.

@florascotia2 might be able to check my spelling and confirm if this is the custom in her area.
Subsequent generations, reading names of elder relatives, may then pick up on the second name.
As Gaelic spelling was not taught across large areas of Scotland, Gaelic speakers had no option but to use English spelling. Thus in the above example you might get:
Cat Varry
Cat Vorric
Or something like that.
You might think this had been thoroughly researched, but surprisingly, it hasn't, so scientifically speaking, it's not clear how these names came into use.

@Apileofballyhoo

SeanCalleach I didn't really mean text books for learning the dialects, and I misread your response even though I actually quoted it! I meant books (or websites) where the differences are set out, including minor ones within the dialects, as opposed to a text book for learning a dialect. Thanks anyway.

I don't know, there tend to be pages of description here and there in other texts. This is a very technical description:

www.uni-due.de/DI/DI_Dialects.htm

It only covers a few features though.

Yes SeanCalleach , it's the same guy.

I don't know, there tend to be pages of description here and there in other texts. This is a very technical description:

*www.uni-due.de/DI/DI_Dialects.htm"

It only covers a few features though.

Yes, I do find bits and pieces here and there in other books. I don't find that description that technical, it's pretty clear and the book references are very useful.

I'll keep plodding on.