Gaelic names spelling and grammar

[ShanKayak]

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

Roisin is a lovely name and needs no squiggles. I'd read that as "Roshin".

But it has fadas and is pronounced Row-sheen as a result.
Róisín is how it is spelled.

Roshin isn't a name.

My whole family is Irish and it does irk us slightly when people try to educate culturally Irish families on correct pronunciation etc. It is more than just right or wrong and the culture is ever evolving

@mathanxiety

Roisin is a lovely name and needs no squiggles. I'd read that as "Roshin".

But it has fadas and is pronounced Row-sheen as a result.
Róisín is how it is spelled.

Roshin isn't a name.

Róisín is pronounced Rosh-een, not Row-sheen, in the north and northwest of Ireland. There are always regional variations on how Irish names are pronounced

Yes, often there's more than one way to pronounce a name depending on dialect and accent. And many Irish and Gaelic names have commonly used anglicised versions too.
Sometimes the incorrect pronunciation or spelling does take off relatively quickly and become very popular. This has happened with Caitlin (Kate-lyn) and it's now established as an anglicised variation originally based on an Irish name.

That said I don't agree that it is more than just right or wrong and the culture is ever evolving.

Obviously, you can choose to pronounce your name whatever way you wish, but there are still right ways (not just one) and wrong ways of pronouncing words/names in any given language.

Grma @mally2020 agus @aerielview

The meaning of Róisín changes without the fadas. I refuse to say squiggles. Yes I've heard it pronounced Roisín but the een sound stays (and I'm pretty sure the first fada also stays). Meanings can change so Sean is old not the name Seán. Can't see a problem using an Irish name whether you have origins or not but spell it right surely?

I might be a teacher who uses fadas on reports if child doesn't already use them

I assume mathanxiety meant row as in pretty mades all in a row rather than wanting to have a row on this thread

Pretty maids!

@fairytimes
Yes, Ruairí and Ruaidhrí are Irish spellings. I think Ruairidh is the Scottish spelling. That first 'i' is important all right. Rory is lovely too, but is pronounced differently.

Agree with your post above lizzieant. There's evolving and then there's making no sense at all! Obviously dialects are important and anglicisation happens. I have one Irish name here and really wish now I had used Irish names for both dc.

@fairytimes Ruaridh/ Ruairí etc is a funny one. Rua means redhaired. Rí means king. So, red-headed king.
But also, "ró" means "high", in the sense of "high king".
"Ró-rí" and "Rua-rí" sound the same. So either or both meanings. But if you take out the hyphen, you can put an i in to conform to modern standard spelling rules. The Ruaridh spelling reflects that this was two words in the past. It's most common in Scots Gaelic but iirc does appear in Classical Common Gaelic texts too.
Go for the current Scots Gaelic standard, that's Ruairidh I think.
I've got a degree in Celtic languages, so I love quirky spellings, they often contain their own story.
Do learn some Gaelic! It's a splendid tongue!

@ShanKayak
That's interesting about the hyphen.
I've never come across ró meaning high, but then language does evolve. Ard Rí means High King today.
Ró and rua don't sound the same in any Irish dialect though. Not sure about Scottish.

LizzieAnt
'Ard' means high in Scottish Gaelic, too.
And Ro and Ruadh - it's not 'Rua' as the OP says - don't sound the same in Scottish Gaelic, either. (Can't do fadas, sorry.)
You can hear them here:

Ro learngaelic.scot/dictionary/index.jsp?abairt=ro&slang=both&wholeword=false

Ruadh learngaelic.scot/dictionary/index.jsp?abairt=ruadh&slang=both&wholeword=false

It's pretty clear which of the two above sounds is in Ruairidh, pronounced here:
learngaelic.scot/dictionary/index.jsp?abairt=ruairidh&slang=both&wholeword=false

Ro means 'too' or 'very' and also 'before' or 'in front'

Ruadh - NOT 'rua' as OP says - means red, rusty etc

Ruairidh (in various older spellings) has been used as a name without hyphens for almost 2000 years. One of the earliest known examples of the name was a high king of Ireland, but that was his title, not his name. His name was (in the old spelling) Rudraige en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudraige_mac_Sithrigi

Spelling conventions change but words and names survive for a remarkably long time. The root word for 'red' goes back to proto-Indo-European, and is shared, in different forms by many languages, including Latin and Gaelic.

The OP has some pretty - ahem - unconventional ideas.

For another really old example of Ruairidh (this time spelled Ruaidri) see here:

heraldry.sca.org/names/irish100.html

[quote LizzieAnt]@ShanKayak
That's interesting about the hyphen.
I've never come across ró meaning high, but then language does evolve. Ard Rí means High King today.
Ró and rua don't sound the same in any Irish dialect though. Not sure about Scottish.[/quote]
Nope - they’re not the same in Scottish either.

[quote ShanKayak]@Matildatoldsuchdreadfullies Roisin is a lovely name and needs no squiggles. I'd read that as "Roshin".

In Italian, the name for Séamas is Giacomo. The nominative would be Giacomus. Giacomo is the dative case. It's not wrong. In fact, by having us ask the question why Giacomo, why Hamish, why Mhàirí, this leads us to remember that these languages used to have declensions, and it enriches our current knowledge.[/quote]
My eyeballs are spraining from rolling them.

They’re not squiggles FFS. The pronunciation in the language it comes from depends on the fada. It’s called a fada.

Yes, ró means 'too/very' in Irish as well florascotia2. Ró-ard means too high for example. I haven't heard it used in the sense of 'before', but then I'm not a native speaker or as fluent as I'd like, so I'm not sure if it's used in that sense in Irish.
The modern Irish version of Ruadh is spelt Rua all right - I think the OP is using Irish in that example she gave.

OP, I think you need to make it clear when you write something here whether you're referring to conventional wisdom/established fact or just telling us your own novel musings! I like the way you think - still chuckling about Solomon/ Súilleabhán from another tread - but it's causing problems when you present something as fact without a shred of evidence. People feel obliged to correct you then in case it causes confusion.

I like that list florascotia2. Thank you.

LizzieAnt Thanks for correcting me re Irish spelling of rua. Now I know!

I think your suggestion to the OP is very wise.

I actually feel so confused right now but so far I am understanding that Ruairidh is the correct way for the Scottish spelling I feel so ignorant whilst reading everything on this thread as I know nothing about Gaelic grammar or spelling but I hope to learn some from all of you!

I've never come across ró meaning high, but then language does evolve. Ard Rí means High King today.

Ró doesn't mean high.
It means 'too'.

Ard = high.
Rí = king.

"Ró-rí" and "Rua-rí" sound the same.

No, in Irish the UA vowel combination is always pronounced 00-ah (or OO-uh, more of a schwa).
Ó is pronounced 'Oh', a long O.

An O without the fada is pronounced 'uh' (short U), in Irish.
For instance 'Rosmuc' (in Connemara) is Russ-muck.

Róisín is pronounced Rosh-een, not Row-sheen, in the north and northwest of Ireland. There are always regional variations on how Irish names are pronounced

Yes but that is a matter of accent, and other Ó spellings are pronounced in a way that is consistent within the accent.

Róisín - Row - sheen
Roisin - Roy-sin

The fada changes the pronunciation entirely. It’s frankly insulting that you use the name and can’t even learn the correct term for the “squiggles”

Same with Seán. Seán is the name, sean is the world for old.

@LongPauseNoAnswer

Róisín - Row - sheen Roisin - Roy-sin

The fada changes the pronunciation entirely. It’s frankly insulting that you use the name and can’t even learn the correct term for the “squiggles”

Same with Seán. Seán is the name, sean is the world for old.

If you read my original comment, you’ll see that, unlike the OP, I understand the need for the fada. Yes I made the squiggles comment, but I was pointing out that I was being a bit of an idiot - particularly when I said it to someone who’d been to a Gaelic speaking school.

I am not a Gaelic speaker, but my dh’s heritage is very important to him So we chose Irish middle names to reflect this. However, in this country, adding the fada would be complicated... so we didn’t. FWIW my Gaelic speaking friend also has a Roisin - which is how the conversation came up in the first place - who also doesn’t use the fada for the same reason.

Well that's a sad reflection on your country or on your expectation of your country. Do people also not manage an umlaut or an accent for German or French names? It comes across badly tbh. I teach many children of different nationalities and make a point of getting their names correct and apologising until I do. Surely most people feel the same and use the fada or other understanding it is part of the name, not an extra, and that is the appropriate thing to do. It's a pity when you wanted to include an Irish name that you now don't have a Róisín at all.. Such a lovely name too. Maybe a name without a fada would have suited better.