Gaelic names spelling and grammar

[ShanKayak]

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

Math is correct.

Correct re Mairi, I meant.

mathanxiety, I do, but find that the name is an old one and that I am not saying it correctly.

An example could be Deborah, I first heard it as rhyming with Norah, or Lorna, I first heard as Lorr-na.

Theoretically, if Ian wants to call himself Eye-an, then that's his name, but if that pronunciation of the name became popular, then it makes it difficult for people using the original pronunciation.

Yes, that's happened a bit with Saoirse, because Saoirse Ronan uses an atypical pronunciation sometimes.
There was a little Saoirse on The Late Late Toy Show recently (it's the Christmas special of an Irish chat show). David Walliams very kindly sent her a message by video link, but kept calling her Sursha, which was a pity.

Is it Sairsha?

I think that Orla might be Orr-la not Awla. I first heard the name spoken by someone Irish.

Yes, the 'r' should really be pronounced and, again, it's spelt with a fada - Órla.

I pronounce Saoirse something like Seer-sha, but some say it closer to Sairsha all right. It's somewhere in between.

Gaelic has grammar. It is a feature of Gaelic tha9t words change quite a lot according to their grammatical function.
Grammatically, these different forms are known as cases.

The nominative case- the main name, the name you would call yourself - is Mairi.

The vocative case - the name used if other people talk directly to you - is Mhairi.

This is nothing to do with a name being old.

But as I have said before, I don't want to be critical of anyone. I'm simply saying what the grammar is. Many people choose to ignore it and that is entirely up to them.

Sorry - cat on keyboard.

This is nothing to do with a name being old.
My post was more about the name being new to the general poulation, but was well established. Something like Irish names like Orla and Caitlin, where they are now Awla and Kate-lyn, bu don't quite sound like that when said by someone Irish.

Órla is never Awla! However I have noticed it rarely gets the fada, moreso than any other Irish name perhaps?

HeyGirl, that's how I hear it being said here in SE England, and the name is getting popukar.

popular even.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Órla is never Awla! However I have noticed it rarely gets the fada, moreso than any other Irish name perhaps?

I've noticed that too, and it's a pity - especially as the word orla should be pronounced urr-la and means vomit . Órla, on the other hand, translates as 'golden princess'.

Ah OK that's an accent thing, I understand now. But yes the R is pronounced.

It's an accent thing, but if you were called Caitlin, and wanted it pronounced the irish way, people wouldn't because they would think you were wrong because they know several Caitlins who are all known as Katelyn.

I think Awla for Órla is mostly an accent thing (non-rhotic versus rhotic).
Caitlín as Katelyn is based on a poor understanding of how Irish orthography works, and was a mispronunciation. It's become mainstream now though.

@MerryChristmasToYou

This is nothing to do with a name being old. My post was more about the name being new to the general poulation, but was well established. Something like Irish names like Orla and Caitlin, where they are now Awla and Kate-lyn, bu don't quite sound like that when said by someone Irish.

Orla (can't do a fada on a capital O on this keyboard) is pronounced differently by people with a non-rhotic accent -- basically, if you don't pronounce your rs, it would sound like AWluh. (And sounds awful, which is why many Irish people living in the UK don't use it.)

Kate-Lyn is an entirely different matter -- it is a complete mispronunciation, as though by someone who thought Irish names obeyed English phonetic rules. Caitlín is pronounced (roughly) Cotchleen. I don't know where in the Irish diaspora it originated, though possibly the US, but though it's a perfectly pleasant-sounding name, it's based on a misunderstanding. My preference would be for the people who want to use it not to use the Irish spelling, which, without fadas, would be pronounced Cat-lin, anyway.

Sorry, x-post with you, @LizzieAnt.

Don't get me started on Saoirse, Sorcha and Seóirse.

Or Aoibheann pronounced as 'Ay-veen'.

I do love Caitlín with the right pronunciation. I knew a Cathlin, pronounced Katelyn . Yes Lizzie forgot that re orla. My mums friend really emphasised the Órla, I can still hear her Orrrrla I also like the Órlaith spelling. Interestingly no fadas coming up on my Irish language keyboard for Órla!

I grew up thinking that Caitlin was pronounced Catlin (almost like Kathleen) so when people announced their little Caitlin's arrival I thought the baby was actually called Katelyn.

I'll have a stab at Saoirse, Sorcha and Seóirse.
See-RR-sha, Sorrka She-RR-shuh, roughly translated as Freedom, Sarah and George?

Sorry if I'm horribly wrong.

@MerryChristmasToYou
You were right really - as TeaEgg said, Caitlin without the fada is pronounced Cat-lin.
Yes for Saoirse; Sorcha is very close, it's more Surr-cha or SURR-uh-CHA though.
Seóirse is SHORE-shuh.
Sarah is used to translate Sorcha, but the names don't have the same root. Seóirse is the Irish form of George as you say, and Saoirse means freedom (its use as a name is relatively recent).

Surr-ka or Surr-tcha? A yes, it's the o fada is Saoirse.

No fada in Saoirse. Aoi is ee like Aoife. I love the sound of Seoirse. As Lizzie says Irish names generally are their own names and not a translation. Irish is ancient.

Yes, plus there used to be a tradition that in school Irish lessons and at Irish college, you were assigned an Irish name by your teacher if you didn't have one of your own, and in some cases that gave rise to a largely fictitious mapping of certain English names as Irish 'equivalents'.

Yes!!