Gaelic names spelling and grammar

[ShanKayak]

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

@MerryChristmasToYou
Surr-ka or Surr-tcha?

forvo.com/word/sorcha/

The Spanish pronunciation included is confusing me a bit though...

The first two pronunciations in that link are from fluent or native Irish language speakers. I'm not sure about the others.

Oh gosh. It's not Sorrka at all the way Brendan says it is more like Sorr-uh-kha, with kh like ch in Scottish loch.

Yes, exactly, the ch in Sorcha is pronounced like the ch in loch.

A lot of people find the pronunciation of the Irish/Gaelic 'ch' difficult though, so they substitute a 'k' sound instead.

And a lot of people just pronounce it with a K sound to be fair, the way they pronounce Cian Keen and Niamh Neev etc, the soft Irish sounds are often forgotten.

Yes, HeyGirlHeyBoy very true. Lots of Irish people don't have much Irish unfortunately. When I said people substitute a 'k', I didn't mean they were doing it consciously though.
I don't like the Keen and Neev pronunciations, but lots of Irish people do use them.
They're not the proper Irish language pronunciations, but they are pronunciations found in Ireland...

Seóirse is SHORE-shuh.
Iirc, there's no fada in Seoirse (equivalent of George).

Sorcha is Surr-uh-kha - the letter O in Irish has almost a short U sound.

.

I always wonder about the fada in Seóirse too. I've seen it spelt with and without, both by reputable sources...so I'm not sure tbh.

Seoirse comes up on my Irish predictive without a fada and that's how I remember it from primary too. Love the sound it makes!

Yes, I've definitely seen it without the fada a lot too. But then you get sources like this -
www.libraryireland.com/names/men/seoirse-george.php
Also, from a pronunciation point of view...doesn't the fada make more sense? Other words with 'oir' like anoir and coir are pronounced quite differently.

An e in front of an o changes the o to an ó sound. No need for a fada on the o. Beo, ceo, deo, eo, feo. Like an a after an i changes the i to an í sound, Niamh, Cian, Dia, Liam, bia, sliabh, mian, liath. Similarly, an a after a u changes the u to a ú sound. Slua, crua, rua, luath.

Fadas are not optional extras. Órla/orla, Seán/sean, Éire/eire, bríste/briste, féar/fear, í/i, sá/sa, dó/do, Dé/de, dí/di, cáca/caca. Quite the difference between a piece of cáca and a piece of caca.

Thanks, was just going to post that the e makes the difference of course Duh! Need more coffee this morning.

And cáca perhaps

Tbf, Lizzie clearly knows that fadas are not optional. Seo, eg, doesn't make the oh sound that beo and ceo do but I'd also say Seoirse doesn't have that oh sound anyway. Lay off the caca whatever you do Lizzie!

@HeyGirlHeyBoy

Tbf, Lizzie clearly knows that fadas are not optional. Seo, eg, doesn't make the oh sound that beo and ceo do but I'd also say Seoirse doesn't have that oh sound anyway. Lay off the caca whatever you do Lizzie!

The fadas not being optional thing wasn't directed at anyone in particular!

I do get upset about the state of the Irish language. My own name has a fada and it gets refused on Irish websites and doesn't appear on Irish bank cards and so on. I suspect other European countries don't have this problem, so to me it's a left over of colonialism.

I get upset about people being ignorant too and declaring themselves to be an authority on pronunciation or spelling or grammar when they clearly aren't.

It's very difficult to find information on different usage in different dialects and it makes me sad that it's all dying out anyway.

School Irish is generally not the same as native speaker Irish, including gaelscoileanna. Sometimes I think a new standardised Irish is starting to form but it makes me sad that the sounds are heavily influenced by the speaking of English so we are losing our ch and our slender consonants, which to me are both beautiful parts of the language and essential for grammar and meaning.

School Irish is generally not the same as native speaker Irish, including gaelscoileanna. Sometimes I think a new standardised Irish is starting to form but it makes me sad that the sounds are heavily influenced by the speaking of English so we are losing our ch and our slender consonants, which to me are both beautiful parts of the language and essential for grammar and meaning.
Yes, agree with this.

I agree too ^^

@apileofballyhoo
"My own name has a fada and it gets refused on Irish websites and doesn't appear on Irish bank cards and so on. I suspect other European countries don't have this problem, so to me it's a left over of colonialism."

German alternate spellings were recently devised for letters with an umlaut and for ß. Special characters and diacritics pose real technical challenges in databases.

"It's very difficult to find information on different usage in different dialects...."

Can you expand on that point? There are textbooks in each of the native dialects, Munster, Connacht, and Ulster. Teanglann.ie offers some resources although I would be interested to hear what others think of it. Did you learn Irish in school, or are you native speakers @mathanxiety agus @LizzieAnt?

The OP evidently meant the group of Gaelic languages for this whole thread. The whole group together would provide better evidence for "Hamish" and "Mhairi" and similar linguistically dissonant forms of names.

That would include:

Scots Gaelic as she is spoken and written now and, separately, as she was spoken across Scotland more widely in the past
Modern Irish
Manx
Classical Common Gaelic/ Early Modern Irish
Middle Irish
Old Irish

There are textbooks in each of the native dialects, Munster, Connacht, and Ulster.

Could you list some please as I'd like to purchase.

@SeanCalleach
I'm not a native speaker, I learnt Irish in school.
I know some of my great-grandparents understood/spoke the language at native level, but Irish was substantially lost by my family by the time I was born. I don't think Irish was taught very well at my school and I found it difficult.

My love for Irish started at university in UCC. There is a department of spoken Irish there, Ionad na Gaeilge Labhartha, which encourages use of the language. They offered classes to those who weren't doing Irish as a subject, as well as visits to the Gaeltacht in September. So I started doing classes and spending time in Corca Dhuibhne (Kerry Gaeltacht) with friends during my college years. We stayed in local people's homes and I began to see the language as a living one rather than as a school subject, and I fell in love with it. So it started there and I continue to study it informally.

I'm not at all an expert, I'm afraid, and my language isn't nearly as good as I'd like, but I do love it and am trying to pass that love onto my children...not sure how successful I'm being there though . Corca Dhuibhne is still my favourite place.

Oh that was really lovely I'd say Lizzie, sounds wonderful.

@Apileofballyhoo

There are textbooks in each of the native dialects, Munster, Connacht, and Ulster.

Could you list some please as I'd like to purchase.

Íontach, @LizzieAnt

Some of the texts I have found useful include:

"Learning Irish" by Mícheál Ó Siadhail for Connacht dialect
"Teach yourself Irish" for Munster dialect
"An Lóchrann Úr" for Ulster dialect

I grew up in England and first learned a few words from elderly relatives, and parents of school friends.

My mum got the original Teach Yourself Irish book and we went to classes in a pub. I went to Queens University and did a degree in Celtic languages and literature. We mainly went to Donegal, but also visited other Gaeltachts. I had to leave Ireland to get paid work so I love Raidió na Gaeltachta, it's great that it's on the internet now.