Gaelic names spelling and grammar

[ShanKayak]

This thread is for talking about grammar and spelling of Irish Gaelic and Scots Gaelic names, in the hope that posters looking for baby name inspiration won't find their threads running off topic.

Just to add, personally I don't think it's a big deal which term is used, as long as the language being referred to is made clear. I tend to use the Gaolainn pronunciation myself when speaking in Irish, and call the language Irish when speaking in English for the most part.

To be honest it's all a mute point depending on your modern audience. You can use all the fadas, normative, vocative spellings you want but if the people in the environment your child is growing up in don't understand what they mean then it's pointless. For example i had never heard the name Siân before university. In Wales loads of people would know exactly how to pronounce that but my friend had to tell me a good few times how to pronounce it before it stuck.

If you live in Ireland, Scotland or Wales go for the spelling that work for 70% of the time. Even a very common name like Claire/Clare/Clair has loads of spellings so it's not a problem if you spell Alastair Alasdair or Alistair the child will have spell it out everytime regardless.

We called our child Mhairi (Va-ri) but we live in Scotland and even here people have to check how it is pronounced. I would have named her something different if we lived in South of England.

It's always been Gaeilge in my part of Minster, never heard that alternative. Interesting. I also cringe at Gaelic but know what is intended.

I am just curious here and I don't mean to be offensive or rude at all, but how is a one syllable name - Siân - difficult to pronounce?

I agree Mathanxiety and also not being offensive. And not a particularly unusual sound to hold in your head iykwim. My ds had a friend called Aedammair, beautiful name, which I did need to hear two or three times before I had it.

This is all really interesting to learn, thank you everyone for sharing.

@HeyGirlHeyBoy
Gaolainn is how native speakers in Munster say Gaeilge, but the Connacht pronunciation is the one taught in schools - though I'm not sure which pronunciation they use in Munster gaelscoileanna tbh, maybe both?

Should Aedammair have a fada too - Áedammair?
I've never met anyone with the name, just extrapolating from Áed/Aodh...it is lovely though.

@mathanxiety

I am just curious here and I don't mean to be offensive or rude at all, but how is a one syllable name - Siân - difficult to pronounce?

Maybe it's not that names are difficult to pronounce as such, but that, even when you're told, it's more difficult to remember how to pronounce a name you're unfamiliar with... I know I tend to forget how names should properly be said in a language I don't speak - unless I'm using them all the time.

Lizzie I've worked in a Gaelscoil here, short term, and it was Gaeilge but the príomhoide is from Ulster but even the native speakers I know, not many, say Gaeilge. Gaelinn to me is the organisation! You learn something new everyday, good to know.

No, I don't think Aedammair has a fada, ae like that in Gael (!) gives the ay sound. It's lovely isn't it. Three gorgeous Irish names in her family.

Interesting, thank you HeyGirlHeyBoy

Fáilte!

@mathanxiety

I am just curious here and I don't mean to be offensive or rude at all, but how is a one syllable name - Siân - difficult to pronounce?

Because it looks like it would be pronounced Cyan.

Most people do not know what sound â is. Written it looked like it would be pronounced Sy-ann. When she explained it sounded like she was saying Sean and it took a couple of goes for the brain to rewire to hear Shann, or Siân written properly.

Sean is an example of a name that is so widespread in Britain that people automatically get the pronunciation.

The name Sean should really have a fada too though. Sean without the fada means old in Irish and is pronounced 'shan'. Seán is the name, strictly speaking, though people do often leave out the fada.

Absolutely Seán has a fada but even in Ireland I have met Seans.. As I said I add a fada on the school reports.. No one has pulled me up on it. What are people like, in Ireland, using an Irish name but seemingly seeing the fada as too troublesome?!

Seán has a fada but even in Ireland I have met Seans

I am good friends with a fada-less Sean. I assume his family are so disconnected from their Gaelic heritage that it never seemed like the done thing. I suppose (based purely on where he is from) it could’ve been several hundred years since his family spoke Irish. I must ask him!

@ShanKayak

On the spelling Roisin, without any fadas, this would be the appropriate spelling for a name that I have heard all my life, with two short vowels. I am not sure if it is the same name as if you added fadas, which I have also heard all my life said in many ways including to rhyme with "washing", which could be spelled without fadas, except that it follows the usual way those sounds would be said in Ulster dialect, so it is predictable is the speaker would feel they are making both vowels long. The name without fadas may come from another root, as similar sounding names exist very widely and they don't all mean "Rose". If you want to name your child "Rose" in Gaelic the the two fadas are required for the standard spelling.

What on earth are you talking about?! Roisin without fadas is not an old name, it only exists (if it does) today from modern parents not bothering to use them. There is no seperate version? In Ireland it’s primarily Row-sheen with Rosh-een in some areas depending on accent/dialect.

Where have you heard people say Roshing?? Where have you seen an old writing of the name without fadas?

Your Seamus musings are also bizarre and confused.

I know two families with fada less Seáns and they just thought it was too much bother. It's not even to do with the family's speaking Irish, is it? It's to do with simply spelling the name right. Á is a different letter as such to A.

I also regard á as different from a, and consider a word misspelled if the fada isn't included. It's the same situation as substituting an 'o' for an 'a', imo. That said, I don't think I'd correct others - how someone chooses to spell their name is their own business. I would always advise people of the proper spelling or pronunciation (or at least my understanding of it) if they were doing babyname research. But I wouldn't correct a child or adult about their name's spelling - unless specifically asked, at least.

I accept that it's harder to use the fada when living outside Ireland. Personally, I'd try to keep the fada if living abroad (but I wouldn't worry too much if those around me left it out). Other people don't want the hassle involved and make the choice not to use it for themselves or their children.

Too often people don't do their research and don't make an informed decision...a problem that goes far beyond names of course. However, even if you have considered very carefully whether to use a fada and have ultimately decided against - in Ireland or not - you run the risk of people thinking you're ignorant of Irish spelling. Because, in truth, you are misspelling the name. Whether the misspelling bothers you more or less than the hassle of using a fada is completely up to you. The misspelling would bother me, but everyone's different.

There are lots of Irish names that don't have a fada at all - tbh I would always advise using those if the fada is an issue.

“We called our child Mhairi (Va-ri) but we live in Scotland and even here people have to check how it is pronounced.”

I ask Mhairis how they pronounce and it’s not because I’m unfamiliar with Gaelic names...

I mean, what else are you expecting people to do? You know if someone is called Mhairi then they’re not a Gaelic speaker so you don’t know whether they pronounce it like Mairi or Mhairi - and I prefer to call people what they want to be called*. It’s got nothing to do with a modern audience.. it’s just people being polite.

• apart from that one drunken argument I had with someone insisting his name was pronounced eye-an lol

As tabulahrasa said, it's very difficult if people who don't speak a language use names from that language in a grammatically incorrect way. No-one wants to be impolite or critical.
HOWEVER (and please, please, PLEASE don't read this unless you don't mind criticism - I really don't want to be impolite):
As has been said countless times on Mumsnet, the Gaelic spelling of Mary is Mairi (pronounced Marry).
The vocative form of Mairi is Mhairi or more correctly a Mhairi. It's used, if speaking Gaelic, when directly addressing someone with that name.
But the actual name remains Mairi.
However, as Tabulahrasa says, all one can do is be respectful of a person - ANY person - and their name and its pronounciation as they see it.

It's confusing because people use the name differently to how it is used in the original language. Theoretically, if Ian wants to call himself Eye-an, then that's his name, but if that pronunciation of the name became popular, then it makes it difficult for people using the original pronunciation.

I know a Mhairi and she says it as Vah-ry, but from pp I think it should be Varry.

It should be Mairi, pr Marry.

@MerryChristmasToYou and @Uggmugg - why not rely purely on what you hear when a new name appears?