Amhlaoibh

[working9while5]

For a variety of reasons, if we have another boy we would like to give him this name.

It's pronounced Oh-lee-uv, and is the Irish version of Olaf. I am Irish and we have strong Norse connections, and this is a family name on my side.

However, clearly is it a NON RUNNER for a baby living in England, to be honest I doubt many Irish people can pronounce it.. so, we are trying to think of a way of incorporating it that will not lead to torture for any baby boy we have.

My granduncle Amhlaoibh had Humphrey as the English version of his name (back then, births had to be registered with an English name) and was called Uncle Free when the family spoke in English. Where they got Humphrey from Amhlaoibh I have no idea, but I'm not sure about it! Possibly thinking (randomly) James Amhlaoibh or Amhlaoibh James and we might do what my family did and call him James. It is common in both our families to have children known by their second name but have an alternative first name, so I have a nostalgia for this even though it makes sod all sense really!

Unless someone can think of a better alternative??

Something I don't understand is why so many people think it's a terrible thing to have to spell or pronounce your name for people throughout your life. I do it all the time. So does my sister and my Mum (whose name is the very complicated Brigid) but none of us has an issue doing it in the slightest. It does irritate my Mum when certain people are taught how to spell her name, yet still proceed to spell it Bridget/Brigit/Bridgid all the time! Technically, you'd think her spelling is the correct one being the saint's name and all.

The name is impossible to decode for a non-Irish speaker. It is like having an Arabic or Chinese name, I would have thought, if you live in a country where 99% of people can't read that script it makes sense to use a phonic transcription.

A more valid comparison might be to other European names. Take the name Javier. Would you say that it is impossible to decode for a non-Spanish speaker? It's a question of exposure. I think people may resent feeling ignorant when they are confonted with an area in which they are, after all, ignorant. But why? It would be silly to get upset with someone for asking for help with your unusual (to them) name - but just as silly to suggest that someone not use a name with origins in a language other than your own.

There are conventions of other languages which one can bother to learn, if one is interested (Irish speakers on this thread have explained a few). Lots of English-speaking people have learned, for instance, the conventions of the Spanish language well enough to "decode" certain names.

Or if one is not interested, but needs to address a single person with an unusual name, one can simply ask the person.

Sure, but until such time as there is an Oscar winning actor called Amhlaoibh, 99.9% of non-Irish speakers will not be able to decode this name, even to a rough approximation. You can spell it for them and they will forget because it doesnt fit into their mental frame of reference at all.That's not just English speakers - French, Spanish, German, and anyone who has learnt to read English as a second language will see these letter combinations as not corresponding to the sounds.

Javier is easier because it's shorter, it's letters with an unusual pronunciation not combinations, and because Spanish is an international language so people know things like Jamon.

I have a non- English name with one vowel sound that people consistently read or spell wrong. It's tedious, and that is just with one sound to correct.

Hardly a good reason to consign the majority of a countries names to history, is it? Other cultures cant immediately work it out so lets not use them at all?

Your arguments are so anglo-centric...
Leaving aside the presumption that a name must be borne by a celebrity before it can be pass this bizarre suitability test (because I assume you weren't entirely serious about that)...

Javier is no more intuitive than Amhlaoibh. You are simply more familiar with one set of conventions than the other. You are right of course that it is shorter. (what about Aodh? Is that one ok, then? it is quite short.)

And as for the child's ability to travel or live somewhere else - what? What if they travel or live in China, or Bahrain, or deepest Peru? Why should their oh-so-anglo name be any advantage then?

Oooh, it's still going.

Two points that strike me, reading this:

1. My friend Jacqueline says she seems to spend her life spelling her name even though it is really common. Also, the number of people who can't spell O'Neill despite there being a chain of pubs and a large sports retail brand further suggests that spelling can be a issue even when it "shouldn't" and that there are a great many people out there who have to repeat and respell their names in everyday life, so much so that it is hardly the social disability you might think on this or other threads. My initial instinct was "oh no, no one will ever be able to spell it, he'll hate it.." but this thread has made me realise that many of the children I work with, the majority of whom are British Asian have names I once couldn't pronounce and that these are now second nature to me. I ask only the same tolerance of others that I have shown myself: that they are culturally sensitive to making an effort to say and spell the name even though it is not straightforward at first glane.

2. I don't know if we will stay in this country forever. My husband is also Irish. It is not unlikely that one day we will return to Ireland (if there's ever an economy there to support us, it will be more than likely). So that is a factor here too... it may be that there is never a teacher who struggles with the name, or that teachers in Ireland might struggle more with a phonetically altered variety than they would the traditional spelling.

brdgrl - was just replying to your point on exposure. I would guess many people who don't know Spanish might have heard of Javier Bardem. Similarly I know how to pronounce Naimh Cussack and Siobhan Fahey through exposure although it hasn't taught me to recognise the letter combinations in their names.

500 million people speak Spanish and over 1.5 billion speak English. So wherever you are more likely to bump into people who understand the conventions of these languages than those who can read Irish.

Of course anyone is free to call their child whatever they like, but if you go for a long and hard to decode name it will be mispronounced, mispelled and asked about all the time if you live outside of your home culture. So, yes if I was going for a non-intuitive to read name I would go for one that has already had some exposure, or was short. Or I would use it as a middle name, so that the child can then decide if they want to have that conversation with every person they meet every day of their lives or not.

On the other hand they may turn out to become the Oscar winning actor that popularises the name, and it will be tripping off everyone's tongue.

Hey working,

I'm Irish too but far from a native speaker and would be hard pressed to know where to start with Amhlaoibh. I would have a stab at the pronunciation as Aw-leave or Om-leave, but that may be because I'm from the southeast.

I think it's a great name - even more so because it's a family name - but would be inclined to go with the Ó to alleviate confusion.

Working I know a Jane whose name is regularly misspelled three different ways. She has heard 'Oh now that is so unusual how do you spell it?' more times than she cares to remember. It's J-a-n-e...

Same sort of problem for an Anne Marie I know.

My DS has an anglicised Irish name that is pronounced exactly as it is spelled and some people still call him by a chavvy or Americanish name that is similar except for one vowel.

DD1 gets a Spanish version of her simple French name all the time.

As for pronunciation, as opposed to spelling difficulties -- people will have all sorts of issues when it comes to names. Some people are bad at names, can't remember who you are even after meeting you for the tenth time; some people are a little hard of hearing and will get your name wrong no matter how simple it is; some people have a mental block that makes them refuse to believe your name is what they have just heard; some people will make the effort to remember it and will get it right. Most people who have a name will eventually get over having to repeat it for whatever reason, and get on with their lives. I have personally survived the experience of bearing a completely unknown Irish name in the US. Friends of mine who went off to teach English in CHina immediately after graduation took their Irish/English/French/Latin/German names alike with them and also survived. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger. .

There's a 'chorizo' thread on MN at the moment where the word 'jalapeno' has reared its head, speaking of Spanish.

Math I do believe your ds may have the same name as mine...

Does it have an original B.H. 90210 similarity?

Well, it shouldn't do. But far too many think it does!