Amhlaoibh

[working9while5]

For a variety of reasons, if we have another boy we would like to give him this name.

It's pronounced Oh-lee-uv, and is the Irish version of Olaf. I am Irish and we have strong Norse connections, and this is a family name on my side.

However, clearly is it a NON RUNNER for a baby living in England, to be honest I doubt many Irish people can pronounce it.. so, we are trying to think of a way of incorporating it that will not lead to torture for any baby boy we have.

My granduncle Amhlaoibh had Humphrey as the English version of his name (back then, births had to be registered with an English name) and was called Uncle Free when the family spoke in English. Where they got Humphrey from Amhlaoibh I have no idea, but I'm not sure about it! Possibly thinking (randomly) James Amhlaoibh or Amhlaoibh James and we might do what my family did and call him James. It is common in both our families to have children known by their second name but have an alternative first name, so I have a nostalgia for this even though it makes sod all sense really!

Unless someone can think of a better alternative??

I repeat, I don't do nationalism, especially when it leads to name calling....

I just can't engage with people who resort to insults. I prefer to laugh at them - it really winds them up

you dont have to do nationalism to have a bit of sensitivity. you posted on a thread (unrelated to the one you refer to) posted by an irish person about irish names, encouraging people to go over and laugh about someone else who was irish, posting about an irish name. how is that necessary on this thread?

ignorant thick racists
Where?

You don't appear to even understand what nationalism is, never mind "doing it". The idea that your halfwitted laughter would annoy anyone is amusing though.

Working Decoding is only half the battle when learning to read English, which must look like ooh I don't know an appropriate analogy -- maybe a random arrangement of scrabble tiles to a lot of ESL students when you think about it? 1,100 different ways to spell 44 (or 46) different sounds...

Amhlaoibh is a gorgeous name imo (I would also pronounce it Owl-eev as Sayit does, as I speak Irish with a Connemara accent, and I would not try spelling it Olaoibh, as this would technically render it Oleeve) and as pointed out, no more complicated in terms of vowel combination/pronunciation or consonant pronunciation than Aoife or Niamh, names that are both becoming better known and their spellings accepted in Britain.

(Despite the ignorance and rudeness amply displayed on the Sorcha thread -- and it seems apparent here too, I believe most British people can actually understand that letters are pronounced differently in other languages.)

At least the letters in most Irish names would net you a decent score in Scrabble.

Math, I know all about decoding, dealing with dyslexia is a large part of my job! Still, Amhlaoibh is a challenge to someone who has learned to read English and I recognise this! For me, when it comes to pronunciation the first syllable isn't as important as the dipthong in the second, which it sounds like you don't have in Connemara (I can barely remember what these would sound like at this stage). So to match my mental representation of the word it has to be O-lee-uv/O-lee-iv (how you show that transition in the vowel is beyond me!) and an "Ow" would not.. so the spelling probably isn't as important

But I do see the broader issues here, having considered the Polish and Punjabi names I have learned to pronounce perfectly adequately without being able to speak either language.. why should I make concessions, in some ways? On the other hand, I do think kids can find it a PITA when their parents give them names that don't match their own phonology and my children will not have Irish accents or learn much Irish other than the "cúpla focail" so... plenty time to think on this some more, I guess!

Anyway, according to the Census, modern Irish names are more likely to be Hayleigh and Kaylee and Brayden than any of these!

I would pronounce the first syllable as "owl" but I think it is a foul name for a child. If you want to call him Olaf, do so although it is only marginally less foul.
I don't see why parents have to be original with names and the idea of putting a Norse name (which sounds fine in their language) into Gaelic is twattish in the extreme. All you are doing is giving the child a cross to bear in life.

It is "twattish" in the extreme to use a name that goes back six generations in my family Tyr? A tad judgemental there, don't you think? Is there a particular reason you are so irate?

And where are you from that you are calling it Gaelic? Where did I mention I was doing something "to be original"? I feel perhaps you are the pot calling the kettle black when it comes to being twattish.

Judgemental, yes; irate, no. What do you mean it goes back six generations? Spelt like that? Add it as a middle name, then if you must. Don't curse a blameless child with it as a first name.

What do I mean it goes back six generations? Erm, that it goes back six generations. Spelt like that. It is an IRISH name. Oliver is the English version of the Norse name Olaf, btw. Is it "twattish in the extreme" to anglicise it? My father's family actually only had about 10 names in all that were passed from generation to generation from the early 18th century, with the first born always being called Dónal, and with Tadhg, Diarmuid and Padraig being other common names. My father was Dónal and his brothers have those names but sadly, due to family circumstances I have no intention of going into here, my father and his brothers do not speak. Amhlaoibh or however you want to write it was the name of my father's most beloved uncle. I love it as a name, you don't. I don't believe it would curse anyone and anyway, if you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that a) I don't think I will use it as a first name and b) I would probably call my child "Ollie" as a nickname if I used it here. Strange reaction on your part though.

I'm fascinated by the diphthong - to me (also Connemara) aoi is one simple sound.

How would you pronounce Aoife? Or aoibheann? Diphthong or no?

The only sound I couldn't convey easily in English was the broad l sound, and thinking about it, I wonder if that would give a little syllable and a half? In that to come out of that broad l into the narrow bh, there is a kind of forced second sound.

More Llee-iv than Lee-uv though, iyswim?

Either way, I really love it. It's great.

Although I think if the diphthong is very important to you, maybe don't use it.

In England it will be said Oh-leev. I would be fine with that, but if you're not I think you need to use it as a middle name.

It's like that with Caoilfhinn for me. Some people are OK with Caoilinn, even pronounced as keelan. But for me the lovely caoi sound that there is no English for, followed by lyin is crucial. And that's unrealistic. Most people won't say it that way, so I haven't used it. And won't.

I don't think it's twattish. I love the story of the heritage of your family names and agree that you should use it somewhere in your child's name (if it's a boy).

"Ollie" the child could live with. For reasons that should be obvious, I'd avoid "Tadhg" too. Aside from the obvious, it is as sonically repugnant as "Amhlaoibh."
Compare that to "Donal" (for example) which is pleasant and sonorous.

Yes you are right about the dark l/broad l sound. I struggled with whether to write it as lee-iv or lee-uv for that reason, as the "u" makes it too long. I would probably now say Aoife without it, but as a little girl and listening to my father it would definitely have had this little extra "bit". Of course I've had a lot more exposure to it as a name where this sound doesn't exist e.g. in common pronunciations, so it has faded. The problem is that I am not a native speaker, my father's family were the last to be native Irish speakers as my grandfather moved out from Coolea and into the city.

My father's family all spoke Irish growing up but they had a terrible time of it at home and so are quite ambivalent about their Irish, they all switched to their English names when they grew up with the exception of my father who is still Dónal. However, because my father was an Irish speaker, I learned the pronunciation of the names from him and they are different to what an English person or another Irish person with limited Irish would use. Dónal is a name I could never use, because it would be pronounced with a hard d and that just sets my teeth on edge. I suppose realistically what you are saying about Oleev is right, and I feel the same about Niamh and to a lesser extent Áine which also has a velar/back quality when spoken by my father anyway, sort of like it almost has a hidden "ng" in it somewhere.

I don't know what the reasons are that you speak of Tyr, it sounds like you are trying to get a reaction from me really. Though I have to laugh that you can say that a name is "sonically repugnant" and call me twattish .
Are you Irish? Yes? No? If yes, it's a shame you view the sounds of the Irish language in such a way. If no, you probably can't pronounce these words anyway.

"sonically repugnant" :o

What a completely ludicrous thing to say about any name, never mind a name in a language you don't even know the name of.

But I am intrigued that you know that an embryo will be so upset by a particular name when born that he won't be able to live with it. What amazing foresight.

Dónal is a horrible, thick and flat sounding name. The idea that it is objectively sonorous confirms your lack of taste in Irish names.

Digression -- Maybe Cork or Kerry Irish inserts an epenthetic vowel (I think there's another term in Greek for this but if there is I've forgotten) for the slender 'aoi' + 'mh' that Connemara Irish doesn't. How does Aoife sound in Cork?

My (sadly non-Irish-speaking) DCs got used to my own unheard of Irish name.

opinion is not fact.

Tyr; here's a phrase that you might be unfamiliar with -- 'in my opinion'. Often abbreviated to 'imo'. It might come in handy.

Also, in terms of sonority, vowels carry more resonance than consonants, so Amhlaoibh, having more consonants and (in my pronunciation) a diphthong is more sonorous than Dónal.

Oh yes, Nyee-uv and Oing-ye :)

I don't so much like Neev and Awnya.

Sorry for slagging off your Dad's name, I forgot. I dislike it with the soft D, hadn't even considered the awful Doe-nal.

its Irish, not gaelic, that would be Scotland.

x-post with Shecut re dipthong and Aoife.

I have a Russian friend Lev whose 'slender' L is lost on a lot of non-Russian speakers.