Amhlaoibh

[working9while5]

For a variety of reasons, if we have another boy we would like to give him this name.

It's pronounced Oh-lee-uv, and is the Irish version of Olaf. I am Irish and we have strong Norse connections, and this is a family name on my side.

However, clearly is it a NON RUNNER for a baby living in England, to be honest I doubt many Irish people can pronounce it.. so, we are trying to think of a way of incorporating it that will not lead to torture for any baby boy we have.

My granduncle Amhlaoibh had Humphrey as the English version of his name (back then, births had to be registered with an English name) and was called Uncle Free when the family spoke in English. Where they got Humphrey from Amhlaoibh I have no idea, but I'm not sure about it! Possibly thinking (randomly) James Amhlaoibh or Amhlaoibh James and we might do what my family did and call him James. It is common in both our families to have children known by their second name but have an alternative first name, so I have a nostalgia for this even though it makes sod all sense really!

Unless someone can think of a better alternative??

I grew up in the North of Ireland and speak the Ulster dialect although I haven't used it for the best part of 15 years. An Ghaeilge (if you prefer) is referred to in English as "Gaelic" or "Irish" (which is less satisfactory)
Your comment about an embryo is ridiculous.

what tyr means is that donal is easy for him/her to say, the others require moving your mouth and so just isn't worth the effort, because i mean, if you must be 'out there' and traditional with names then at least make it easy for the english. we do name our children with english people's convenience in mind dont we?

mathanxiety - but think of aoi after an l - even in Connemara Irish that changes the vowel sound because you have to come out of the broad l into the narrow bh. I can see where the diphthong comes in, although when I say it it is barely audible.

Aoife is different, because you start in the vowel.

'the idea of putting a Norse name (which sounds fine in their language) into Gaelic is twattish in the extreme.'

But it already is a transliteration of the Norse Olaf. It's not original. And no more twattish than the anglicisation of pretty much every single OT and NT name, plus all those French, Greek, German, etc., names that are accepted as 'English' now -- James, William, Charles pronounced with the hard CH, Frederick, George...

It's not Gaelic, btw. It's Irish.

An Ghaeilge is referred to in English as Irish.

Unless I am mistaken, both booy and I are resident in the "North of Ireland", and are familiar with Ulster dialect.

Why that would make you some kind of expert on names used in Munster is beyond me.

He'll have a lifetime of explaining/ spelling it which can get really tedious. I have an obscure Irish name myself, so I speak from bitter experience...

We don't call it Gaelic in the South as usually that is what Scots Gaelic is called and it is traditionally the way the English name the Irish language, which is "less satisfactory" to my ears.

The point about using "in my opinion" is still relevant...

Tyr, if you speak Irish in the Ulster dialect, your pronunciation of this name will be very different to mine but I'm sure I don't have to tell you this. I do think it's a little bit strange that you chose to be quite as negative about these names as you did. You don't like them, that is fine. Your comments seem stronger than that though. Extrapolating that you know my motivation for naming my child is to be "original" without even knowing any of my reasons or paying attention to the fact I said it was a family name was just a bit, well, odd.

True about the broad to slender transition, Shecut. Interesting compare and contrast paper here wrt Irish and Russian diphthongs.

Working, I agree about the D in Irish names not sounding quite right when pronounced as an English D.

yes northern ireland here SCOTT.

Sorry but I think it is a horrible name and I love irish names-both my ds have irish names but like you couldnt find a girls one we could both agree on so our dd does not have an irish name

I do think it will become very annoying as they get older having to constantly spell/correct the pronounciation. I know this because one of my ds gets this already and he has a relatively simple irish name imo.

If you are determine to use the name then I think it would be better as a middle name.

Irish boys names I love but dh vetoed-

Fergus
cillian-my fave
oisin-am sure this is not how you spell this one!

I personally do not like the name, but I do like the story behind it, so as a middle name it ensures the connection to your forefathers is cemented and if this is important to you then 6o for it.

oisin is right pink

Coming late to the party, but I like olaoibh! If you are going for pronounceability in england, I'd go with the initial o myself. I know no Irish but have enough Irish friends with names incorporating an 'aoi' or 'aoibh' sound to know how it is pronounced - aoife is reasonably well known as an Irish name IMO - so I could decode olaoibh, but would have trouble with the amh sound. Amusing really re bunfight about unpronounceability of Irish that it is in fact far more phonetic than English!! Anyhow, it's a good name. My mum has an unpronounceable French name and it's really not abig deal to just tell people how to pronounce it. Though I have opp problem as my very english name is useless in France. My aunts and uncles still spell it wrongly after 35 years, which does nark me a bit...

It takes a fada on the final "i" which gives it the "een" sound at the end.

Ah now I do no accents on the iPhone as a matter of policy, sorry:) I can read French even minus accents so presume an Irish person would have similarly little problem.

It's a gorgeous name, but I'd echo the other posters who have suggested it as a middle name. I have a very unusual surname which I spend my life spelling/correcting the pronunciation and it gets very irritating - I can only imagine having to do that with my first name.

I think you may have trouble registering a name with a fada so may be worth checking (I had Heloise on my short list fot what became DS2 and later found out the original spelling I would have liked was not allowed).
As someone with a name from a foreign language who lives in a English speaking place please please think carefully before you choose. My name should be quite simple but I work with Americans and everyone gets it wrong. The Indians at work laugh at me

you will have no trouble registering a name with a fada.

Ah! That is good to know. Cheers

Wow this thread has moved on!
While there are a few of you who are obviously very familiar with Irish spellings/pronunciations, I've been wondering about the 'amh' sound. My daughter's middle name is Niamh which I usully pronounce 'neev' to be honest, but like 'nyeev' if I'm saying it 'properly' (or so I thought!). So Amhlaoibh is pronounced with an 'ow' sound at the beginning and now I'm confused about why that is a completely different sound to the -amh in Niamh. Is it the 'i' that makes the difference? My family is from Carlow, so I guess the pronunciation there would be different to yours, but I'd still like to be educated.

Ooh, good question.

math might know this.

Here's my take on it (non-expert):

mh (or really m séimhiú) can be pronounced as either v or w. This can depending on whether it is broad or narrow.

So the vocative "a Mhíchíl" (a veeheel) and "a Mhuiris" (a wirrish).

This rule is pretty strictly observed in Ulster dialect, but in other canúintí a broad mh can be a v sound, particularly where it is the final sound of a word.

e.g. "ag snámh" would be ?eg snaaú? whereas in southern caighdeán Irish that would be ?eg snawv?.

So the standard pronunciation of Niamh ends with a v sound (even in Ulster), although arguably Nyeeú would be valid too.

Amhlaoibh would not be Ovleev, because mh following a like that in the middle of a word is an ow (or oh) sound.

i like it.
didn't know the name, but immediately assumed it was an irish name.

admittedly, it might make your life and his life a bit complicated - my DD has a name with an only slightly uncommon (ethnic) spelling, and i have had to have documents reprinted, etc, etc which can get irritating.

i like finbar olaoibh too.

Aswellasyou, I have a lot of family in Carlow, where my mum came from. (Actually from near The Rower in Kilkenny, where I understand Irish was spoken into the 19th century. Just to complicate things, my grandparents, who went to school before Irish was taught in schools but picked up Irish at Gaelic League classes, both pronounced some of their DHs in Irish as V, which I have seen mentioned as a characteristic of the old SE Leinster Irish that has fallen victim to school Irish and increasing standardisation.)

I think the internal MH in Amhlaoibh may have just got swallowed up by the L but remains to form a sort of diphthong with the A -- A+mh = ow.
(Highly scientific explanation there [not]).

Broad MH is pronounced 'V' when it comes at the end of a word or after long vowels or diphthongs in Munster Irish, and the 'U' or 'W' sound for end BH and MH is normal in Connacht Irish. WRT 'Niamh' the Munster pronunciation seems to have pushed the Connacht and Ulster end MH and BH pronunciation out. I suppose with a name as opposed to a common noun more standardisation of pronunciation is to be expected and for some reason the Munster pronunciation won in the case of Niamh.

However, the Irish V sound is softer than the labio-dental V sound of English. This gets lost in translation somewhat when people who normally speak English use an Irish word or name and the more plosive English V replaces the softer (for want of a better word) V of Irish, which can veer into approximant U or W territory, especially when the MH or BH are broad, and in the Connacht accent in general. (Generally, broad and slender distinctions are also lost in Irish names when pronounced by English speakers.)

I really like this name - agree it's unusual but that's no bad thing, especially with the family connection. This thread has brought back fond memories of Irish college in Ballingeary [wistful] - l love West Cork Irish. The spelling may take some explaining/getting used to for those coming across the name for the first time, but it's straightforward to pronounce (having said that I have English friends who can't properly pronounce simple names like Padraig or Orla or Cliona so you may need to let some of it wash over you!).

I think we'll be going with Finbarr if I have a boy this time (no surprise to say I'm from Cork City ). I'm married to an American, currently living in London but planning to move to the States in 2012 so we want something relatively easy to spell & pronounce (plus I love the name Finbarr).

Gobnait is a desperate name and I'd have thought no one named their girls that except that I knew a girl named Gobnait at Irish college (nn Gubby, the poor thing). Shame really, as I love bees/beekeeping and would love a name with that connection but Gobnait is just too awful...Bit like the name Dorcas - I know 3 women called Dorcas despite me wondering how you can hold a newborn and think "yup, we're calling her Dorcas"!

The trick might be to keep non-Irish-speaking friends from seeing the name written down until they have heard it for a while and learned to say it. My own Irish name causes no problems at all pronunciation-wise when people first hear it, but after they ask me to spell it for them it all starts to go south.

Flip -- I knew a Gobnait too! nn Gubby [gaaaagh]

Damhnait is much nicer imo.