Amhlaoibh

[working9while5]

For a variety of reasons, if we have another boy we would like to give him this name.

It's pronounced Oh-lee-uv, and is the Irish version of Olaf. I am Irish and we have strong Norse connections, and this is a family name on my side.

However, clearly is it a NON RUNNER for a baby living in England, to be honest I doubt many Irish people can pronounce it.. so, we are trying to think of a way of incorporating it that will not lead to torture for any baby boy we have.

My granduncle Amhlaoibh had Humphrey as the English version of his name (back then, births had to be registered with an English name) and was called Uncle Free when the family spoke in English. Where they got Humphrey from Amhlaoibh I have no idea, but I'm not sure about it! Possibly thinking (randomly) James Amhlaoibh or Amhlaoibh James and we might do what my family did and call him James. It is common in both our families to have children known by their second name but have an alternative first name, so I have a nostalgia for this even though it makes sod all sense really!

Unless someone can think of a better alternative??

ooh a question for math or SCOTT (whilst we are on pronunciation) without wishing to hijack OP's thread.

in school i was told the translation for my name is Léan, which the teacher (ulster irish) pronounced Len as in Ken. is this right?

To me, Léan would be 'LAY-un' or maybe closer to 'Lay-n' (long A sound followed by slight schwa). The difference might be down to the Ulster Irish accent, which mine is not.

Math I have been tempted in the past to start a Gobnait name thread on here just to see what reaction it would get . I like Damhnait too (also like Blathnait) - out of curiousity, how you would pronounce Damhnait - Dev-nait? I like the detail you provide (sorry to OP for slight hijack!).

math i always thought the same WRT the 'Lay-n' pronounciation but as he was the only person ever called me it i wasn't sure.

I fear the Gobnaits of the world (all 6 of them) might be offended by a Gobnait thread. .

I have heard Damhnait pronounced Dove-nit/Dove-nut and Dovv-nit/Dovv-nut (slender T/ proper Irish T sound are important to avoid 'nit' connotations)

Math thanks for that - I think I'd say something like "Dovv-nit" (though I've been out of Ireland too long and if I ask any of my siblings they'll know straight away we'd be thinking of a girl's name, with subsequent opinions on the matter!). And that link is hilarious - Frank Kelly - pure class! The mother is in a home for the bewildered

Boo I'd also say something "LAY-un"

This thread is very interesting.

OP - if the name is very important to your family and to you then use it. It's a fine name with history. Seeing it written down might fox people a bit at first, but once they hear how it is pronounced then the polite and sensible thing for them to do would be to remember it when they are addressing him or speaking about him.

Boo - your DS2 has one of my fave ever Irish names!

I remember vaguely that Phil Schofield got into bother when he remarked on This Morning a few years ago that a guest had a name like letters on a Scabble board. It was an Irish name too, it was that guy from X Factor Eoghan Quigg.

Olaf is nice.

I did wonder whether it might be pronounced amoeba

thank you TLC.

i wonder what it is about irish names that people think they are fair game to poke fun at. i mean, they do realise that actual people have these names? it is real people they are making fun of when they say things like that about their names.

is it only irish names or do french/german/asian names etc get the same sort of sniggering aimed at them?

Have only seen names like Bent (Scandinavian) and Precious/Princess/Innocent (African Anglophone) remarked upon disparagingly. Though Fritz as a nn got shot down in flames here a while back (too German, as in 'don't mention the war'). So not for the same reasons as Irish names. I haven't seen any poke funnish comments made about Scottish or Welsh names, nothing that I can remember anyway.

The 'scrabble tiles' comments are ironic because, as mentioned upthread, Irish orthography and pronunciation are very regular and predictable, moreso than English.

nice name, use it

I think floggingmolly has given the best reason for avoiding the name. Your son will have to spell it out all the time.

I have a non-English name and after 39 years I can tell you that I am sick of spelling it and explaining it's origins all the time.

If your DH wants to honour his relative, could he not change his own name by deed poll?

It's definitely not only Irish names that are 'made fun of'. I don't think there is a single name I've asked an opinion of on Mumsnet over the years that hasn't been shot down in flames. Many of them were Scottish (my dh is Scottish so no cries of racism if you please), one of the memorable ones being 'Morven' which I was told sounded like an old woman with a cats-bum face. If you ask for an opinion of a name, then you are fair game for a bit of criticism re said name, no??

I find it quite frankly baffling that some Irish people on here seem to feel so aggrieved that everyone is picking on Irish names in particular. Yes some people seem to have been particularly spiteful about the name Amhlaoibh & have also directed their spite towards the op which I think is totally uncalled for. The majority of people have simply given their opinion on the name & I really don't think there is any 'Irish bashing' going on on mn, any more than there is Scottish bashing, Welsh bashing, or any-other-nation-bashing.

As a supply teacher taking the register it would definitely be one that I'd have to say "you'll have to help me out how to pronounce it" - can bash all you like for that, but sadly I don't have an encyclopedic knowledge of other-language names where the letters bear no direct relation to how they're pronounced in English and it's not one you could take a shot at off the bat and even get remotely close.

That's more likely to be a factor lower down the school - by the time you get up into the juniors kids tend to know roughly where they come in the register and can help you out more readily.

I like it. But is there a modern Irish spelling? Some of my family have used traditional Irish names for their dc and have 'updated' the spelling to reduce the confusion. Any native speakers you could ask? My dd has a Irish name which is fine in England, generally, but ds has a old Welsh name which no one can pronounce.

mumyslittlesunbeams it is only the 'scrabble tiles' and 'random keys on the computer' posts that i have been annoyed with on this thread. all the other posters have goven their opinion without needing to belittle the name at all. i did post why i thought people were quite defensive of irish names and pronunciation on i think page 1 of this thread. it is only my opinion though so others may have different reasons for why they get a bit more upset than others think they should when irish names are being ridiculed. (as was happening earlier in this thread)

Deja i dont think anyone here has said they would take offence by someone not being able to pronounce the name. i know i certainly wouldn't.

Read some of the Irish name threads again, Mummys. Rarely do you see disparaging remarks about the appearance of the name, the number of letters, the alleged strangeness of the language, the consonant clusters or the strings of vowels. The Sorcha thread was a very sad example.

There is much more objection raised to the appearance of the name on paper with Irish names than any others, and not as in the sub teacher trying to call the roll and seeing a name that defeats her. There is much more likelihood of seeing the scrabble remarks. Not in the same vein at all as the comments you report on Morven or the run of the mill chav/poncey comments. When it comes to Irish names the vagaries of the language itself are much more frequently commented upon than the names themselves and what image they conjure up.

Rude remarks about names in Irish are not Irish nation bashing, and that is not actually what anyone here is complaining about. They are rude remarks about a language, and they are uncalled for. A language is a language is a language. Irish is not English. It has its own rules of spelling and pronunciation. The dismissive remarks made when Irish speakers point out that a name (let's say Sorcha) should be pronounced a certain way because it's an Irish name that therefore follows Irish rules of pronunciation (let's say Surr-uh-kha) and not another (for instance Sore-sha) that bears absolutely no resemblance to the name as it is written (either in Irish or in English in that particular case) reveal both rudeness and ignorance, and also a basic lack of respect for the fact that other languages (mostly Irish) have different sound/letter correspondence from English; there is also frequently the assertion that any old stab in the dark is every bit as valid as the correct pronunciation.

I would be delighted to have a supply teacher ask for pronunciation help, Deja and your phrase would be a tactful way of going about calling the roll. It would beat guessing at it or rolling your eyes about it by a long shot.

I think 'Amhlaoibh' is as updated as it can go, Turkeyboots. Maybe Amhlaí, but then the 'eeuv' final sounds would be lost.

what mathanxiety said

But to a non-Irish speaker (or whatever non-English name is being discussed on a thread) the letters can look fairly random as we don't speak the language. This isn't a criticism of the Irish (or other) language, it just means it's a language with a set of rules that are unfamiliar to some of us. I am quite relieved when someone else says a name doesn't make a great deal of sense to them as it means I'm not the only one who doesn't understand every language in the world.

fixture you are right, to a non-irish speaker the letters can look 'wrong' but rather than saying "it looks like a bunch of scrabble tiles TBH" why can't people say, "to me, it looks strange because i dont speak the language" therefore they are owning the issue of not understanding the name rather than implying the language itself is the problem. the language isn't the problem. there are hundreds of languages in the world and they are not 'wrong' it is the person who doesn't spek the language that is having difficulty rather than the language causing the difficulty IYSWIM. it goes back to the whole 'english isn't the only or the 'right' language ' thing.

math and SCOTT, thankyou for the explanations. I can see how it works now.
Try, I love the name Eoighan but I think it looks strange written as Eoghan. That was my potential name for a boy but I thought it was a bit 'normal' sounding. I had a girl, so I didn't have to think about it in the end.

The name is impossible to decode for a non-Irish speaker. It is like having an Arabic or Chinese name, I would have thought, if you live in a country where 99% of people can't read that script it makes sense to use a phonic transcription.

This will be an issue for them growing up, but also when they get older if they ever want to live or travel somewhere else.

I would use a phonic version if you can live with it. Or keep it as a middle name.

Phonic transcription makes it a different name. And is pandering to the english-centric. Why should we change the spellings of our names to make it easier for everyone else?