Talk : Antenatal support thread for women who have chosen to terminate V

[treedelivery]

Welcome to the 5th thread.

An amazing day to begin a new journey together. The thread babies are arriving and we take this as a positive nod from the great karma controller - whoever and whatever that may be.

Good luck to our thread, to the souls who read, those who post, those who drop in to learn and hold hands.

Our cyber bench is a supportive place, we sit outside hospitals as strong but scared women go to ride their wave. We huddle in our cottage when the weather is bleak, stormy or biting cold.

When the sun shines on us we share stories of real life, gain strength and giggle together in times of warm weather.

Brief post from me but more later... I just wanted to reach out to Allways. Your story of meeting your two girls is beautiful and the fact that they were blessed, and named, and valued as people, is so important. You haven't let anyone down - you've been incredibly brave and had an absolutely horrible, unthinkably horrible, time.

In terms of counselling, I don't have any suggestions as I gather the waiting lists are bad everywhere - which I agree is ridiculous - if you go through trauma like this you need counselling sooner rather than wait till it's suddenly available months later. My DH contacted ARC quite recently actually - during this pregnancy - because he realized he hadnt done enough talking and grieving over the last 18 months and they responded very fast, sent newsletters and offered to link him up with people who had been through similar. He didnt contact them, I dont think, but he found the newsletters helpful. (Whereas they utterly floored me - the level of pain seemed to make me worse). In any case please please keep posting here -like Coffee I found it helped (and still do).

This hasn't ended up so brief... Hi Coffee and Popsy, you two talk so much sense. Good luck with the appointment Popsy. How are you doing today, Coffee?

Eulalia -- I wanted to say, I have an old Mumsnet 'Babies' book from 2003 - and you seem to be quoted in it a lot on breastfeeding. Is that your DS1 you are talking about?

Hi Bee, Bezzy, been thinking of you around these anniversaries.

More later...

Allways, thank you for feeling able to come and share the birth of your beautiful twins. I hope you are able to post here more often. I agree maybe the church or something like the Samaritans would be much better for more immediate support.

ds1 seems a bit better today (so far), watching a DVD just now. We have a carer who helps us just a few hours a week but am lucky to have her.

Yes Cantdo - that's me! And the baby I speak of is now 10 1/2

Will try to catch up on the posts.... love to all. xxxx

Hi Cantdo, you seem to have summed it all up, it's indeed hugely comforting that our babies are all valued as people in here. Even if they were with us for just a little while, they are much loved, and they changed our lives forever, their loss is real and so is their memory.

I am ok today so far, no tears, just the underlying sadness which is now familiar. Just waiting for time to pass really, and trying to find ways to cope with the lack of meaning in my life. Somehow I manage to get through the days.

Anyway, back to work now... Thinking of you all xxxx

Thank you, its always a warm welcome here. Yes it was my community mw who let me down. A friend who lives in Australia actually had to step in and speak to the hospital and head of mw services to make sure I got another visit, after mw text me saying I wouldn't be seen again as I was no longer bleeding and didn't have a baby to monitor!! The whole experience has left me feeling very worthless. Only some members of my family speak of our girls, my parents in law refused to visit us in hospital, despite my dh inviting them to see their only grandchild and brother in law didn't tell his parents (DH parents) until 7 hours later that Rose had been born. I know this wouldn't have been the case if Rose and Lilly had been born alive. Its as though they are denying their existence. I'm angry at lots of people.
I feel angry that we didn't receive cards at their birth, I know its not the time to congratulate, but just a card to acknowledge their birth from my brothers/family and some friends. Because most other families get them!! I have to say, I've become a little obsessed about these cards and think if I had them, I'd feel better.....I know it won't make me feel better, but I just want those dam cards. I've been going into card shops and looking at them, picking ones out I'd like to receive....I've come close to buying one for myself, but then realise that its just wrong.

Coffee, that exactly how I feel. Just passing the days........

Love to you.

Forgot to say: your MW's attitude is just appalling! I know you're not up to it right now, but maybe you or your dh can complain in the future? Does your hospital have a bereavement midwife?

Hi ladies
Always so sorry for both of your losses and that we have 'met' on here.Your whole experience is heartbraking and the mw sounds horrendous.
If you have a bereavement midwife at your hospital that may speed up the counselling. My husband contacted the hospital after our first loss last year as i wasnt coping at all and was getting worse. They said they dont usual visit peoples whos births were before 20wks but as mine was so close 19weeks she would visit. I had an appointment with a counsellor with a couple of weeks. Hope that helps.

Anyway off to the hospital now will hopefully post later. Cant thanks for the goodluck wishes

xx

Allways, so glad to hear from you. I have thought of you daily, as have others, and have hoped that somehow you knew we were with you in spirit. Thank you so much for sharing your time with Rose and Lilly with us - such beautiful names. How incredibly hard this must be for you. I can see what you mean about the cards; they would show acknowledgement of your girls. I don't think it would be wrong to buy a card/cards yourself. Perhaps you could use them to write words to your girls, or poems, or anything else that you feel. I bought a 1st birthday card for my first daughter and wrote a letter to her inside. I know you feel you have nothing, and physically that may be, but Allways, you will forever have your girls with you. No one can ever take them away. I realise that seems so little compared to what you should have, and it is, but although it may sound trite, they will always be with you. I am so sorry that, on top of everything, you were let down by your midwife. I hope you manage to organise some counselling soon, but in the meantime, know we are here xxx

Eulalia, hope your day's going well. I know you have your challenges, but I hope you don't mind me saying that your life has always (for as long as I've 'known' you anyway) seemed idyllic to me. I think its because you seem to spend lots of time out and about with your family, camping etc, and also those pictures of your 'free range children' (Tree's observation as I recall), especially your little girl among the field of flowers - just lovely. When I get my computer back, I will put up some pictures of my own, so do check when you pop in xxx

Popsy, x-posted with you yesterday. Hope today goes okay. Perhaps your headache could be stress related? It wouldn't be any wonder, that's for sure. Hope your up and downs is more up for you today xxx

Only meant this to be short. Hi to everyone else (wave to Shangrila). counting down the days for you Cant. Love to all xxx

Bee, just quickly, thank you as always for your words. I do somehow feel a veteran of grief. I've noticed on here however, that some seem so wise, so quick, and write of things that, for me, took ages to figure out. And, yes, I am so grateful for my Bella-Rose, I could, and do, cry. PS: I actually meant to say that when Bella is smiling madly at nothing, I like to think Sheridan may be in the room, perhaps even pulling a face kinda like this , but what you described would be lovely too! I'd just like to think big sis might be dropping in on little sis . xxx

PS Coffee, re: your recent visitors; isn't that elephant in the room dreadful? I'm glad you had the company of your other friends in the very early days. They sound wonderful xxx

Allways; I have thought of you and looked out for you every time I read here. Well done, dear girl, for reaching out and sharing your story with us. I am so glad that the birth was beautiful and that you had time with your Rose and Lily. Beautiful names. I totally understand your need and desire for recognition of their births and short time here; a card or a word; some kind of acknowledgement is so very important, necessary, precious. Dearest Tree, I had met her on this thread, posted me a card and little love heart after my second termination. It meant so very much. She knows that.
The words here can offer some real, real recognition of your girls. I know that on ARC they do post photographs of lost babies too and I think this may serve as a tribute to the babies for some women.
You have endured so much.
It is just too hard.
Could you afford some private counsellling do you think? What you are feeling is so raw and real and natural; but also excrutiatingly painful and it is okay to ask for help. You deserve it and and you very, very much deserve our support and time. Somewhere to rant and scream at the injustice of it all. Somewhere to just be heard. It makes me angry for you that you have to wait so long.
Will write more soon - hugs to you
Bee xxx

Allways, I understand about the cards and the acknowledgement that your daughters existed. I think Coffee is spot on - some people are insensitive, but others just don't get it and they can't help it. I confess that I basically forced my parents to look at photos of our second lost girl - I wish I had done likewise with the inlaws actually as they act like it never happened and have shown no sensitivity whatsoever.

The midwife, though, should be professionally aware and sensitive. Mine wasn't (didnt come) but then months later at a GP apptment for something else I was reading the screen over his shoulder and it had a report from hospital on it saying I had insisted I didnt want to see the community mw. Have no recollection of such insistence but do believe it as it is fairly typical of me...

Could you buy something/plant something to commemorate your girls and put it somewhere prominent? We have an ornament with 2 little girls on it, figuring our lost angels.

Popsy, how did the hospital go?

Coffee, you sound so wise today. Is it a calm day, for you?

Eulalia, glad your DS is better.

Hi Bee. How are you?

It's been said here before but I do feel as though all our babies not only exist and are acknowledged here, but are somewhere together, looking after each other...

Hello Cantdo
I am thinking of you and astonished really that it is so near to your date. Golly, how did that happen really?
I also want to send wishes and thoughts to an ARC lady who posts here and whose story I read in the newsletter today. What a movingly composed story. The stories, the narratives of the babies are so vital to recovery and acceptance to me and to many of us I guess.
And to Allways, I meant to add that when I needed counselling (and I needed it enormously after my separation, I fell apart), the therapist offered a sliding scale of fees. I paid a much reduced rate; it has since gone up but never to the full amount as she knows I would struggle to pay it.
Is there maybe a kind soul at the hospital that you could reach out to? Maybe another midwife or as Coffee suggested, a bereavement midwife? In fact, what you need of course is not advice from me. It somehow needs acknowledging in real life as well as here.
So many months have passed since my losses; there are times when I refer to it with dear friends ( and I mean dear ones) yet even they have nothing to say. It knocks me over still. I feel the level of fortitude required to mention it out loud, in public, is so enormous. Do they really not have any words at all? I feel like standing up, yelling, I lost three babies. Three. I have been to hell and am not yet back. JUST SAY SOMETHING. And then I remind myself that I too have been clumsy, awkward even, at a loss if someone I know has lost someone. Because in the end, the finely tuned moment, what they may need to hear, or be ready to hear, may not be now. They may not need to have me provoke a feeling for them at this very, very moment. They may be feeling private or vulnerable, or frightened of losing control or angry or detached. So, what I am saying is, I get it wrong. We all do. It does not mean that they do not love us. It means they are human and scared and sometimes ignorant. But they have not been to 'the dark side'. They do not know.
Bee xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Cantdo, you seem to know me so well... it was indeed a better day. I have to say wise is the last thing I feel I am, but thank you for saying it xx

Mishta, big hugs. Indeed, it beats me how some people prefer to have the elephant in the room than risk a few tears.

Bee, I hope you feel better and the awful sadness subsided a bit? Popsy, how did the appointment go? And Allways, I really hope this evening is gentle with you. Much love.

Bee, I cross posted with you last evening and somehow didn't see your post until now. You are so right, you found as always the right words. It's good to remember that if some people (dear friends, as you call them) get it wrong sometimes it doesn't mean they love us less. However, it's hard when you are so raw and hurt so much. What I struggle with though is not people who get it wrong, but those who pretend it never happened. I'd rather they be clumsy or embarassed, I find that if my loss is acknowledged in any way, be it a very "wrong" way, I can reach out myself and tell them I'm ok, and then behave in a normal way. But if they act as if nothing happened, I struggle.

I hope everyone is ok-ish today. Cantdo, I can't believe it's next week, I remember in one of your first posts to me you were around 32 weeks. You so deserve this after all you've been through, I bet every week seems like a victory.

Completely agree ladies. My hubby and i always said that we realise people are going to get it wrong, mainly because most of the time we dont know what we want, but what makes it worse is when people dont acknowledge our feelings/loss and our 2 babies. It hurts so much. I felt is was as though my loss wasnt real to them, it was 'just' a pregnacy, not a baby, my baby. It always hurts more when its family or close friends. DH gets through that part by saying usless they have experienced it then they cant begin to understand.
I spent the other evening in tears after a convo with my closest friend, she was amazing when i lost my son last year. Her nephew was born on the same day as my sons funeral. Although that wasnt my ds due date, i have always found it very hard to bear. She wants to talk about him and asked why i have never asked what she bought him for his christening or xmas etc etc what he is doing etc etc. I was so upset that she just doesnt get it. My son was baptisted in a hospital, nobody bought him anything. Nobody even acknowledged it. Nobody got him a xmas present and he wont do any of the firsts her nephew is.
oh dear another moan. Anyway my hospital appointment went ok, although completely fell apart as we drove away from hospital, too many memories, what ifs and feeling a complete failure. Spent several hours at the cemetry. The stress of fertility treatment and no guarantees! What happens if it happens for a third time?? I phoned the cons today regaring our follow up appointment and it doesnt look like it is until JUNE!!!
sorry i havent posted in person to you lovely ladies. I will next time.

Oh Popsy, I could have posted your post. Its hard to ask, because every day is a constant reminder of what you're missing, you don't need to know the specific details about particular dates, every day you deal with your loss and know youre missing out.

I bought a packet of Easter egg shapped baubles and put them in 2 egg cups near a photo of Rose. My girls will always have eggs at Easter....no one but my Husband and those who post here will probably know that, but I guess thats ok.

Sorry, I'm not familiar with your losses. If its ok and you feel up to it, I'd like to know about your babies? We too are waiting for an appointment with the fertility clinic and hope to be able to try again using IVF soon. I'm so angry at havign to 'start again' and yup the thought of the stress and failure make me want to hurl things across the room. It is just not fair.

Hello to everyone, just a quick post to say that I have been away but have thought of you all.

Allways its good to hear from you. Like all of the other ladies I?m just so sad for you.

I have a photo of Olivia on my phone and I look at it every night, I am so scared of forgetting what she looked like. It has turned into a ritual!

I have taken up jewellery making as a new hobby which I am selling to friends and will eventually set up a web site. The idea was as a kind of therapy (which has been wonderful) and once I am making some profit I am planning to give 50% of the profit made to ASBAH in memory of Olivia.

Hello to everyone else I'm thinking of you and all of your babies. I am glad in some ways that they are all together now. Much Love xxxxxxx

Popsy and Allways, it must be so hard to have to go back to fertility treatment after having been pregnant. Is it IVF you will have too, Popsy? Is there (for either of you) any chance of the kind of IVF where they screen the eggs for abnormalities? or is that too new?

I love the jewellery-making as therapy idea Gina. Creativity is a really good response to loss. And I understand your ritual with Olivia. You are brave! did you start on the megadose of folic acid like Bezzy?

Hi Coffee, Bee, Mishtabel, and everyone else. All well here. Had a lazy day and feel the better for it....

Cantdo, Im not sure we will be screened; I guess it depends on Rose's pm results. They can screen for genetic issues and may well be offered it.

Gina, it must help making the jewellery in memory of Olivia and helping others.

I too look at Rose's photos before bed. We also sleep with some of her clothes. DH and take turns in sleeping with either the vest or baby grow she was dressed in after birth. We were unable to redress her after the pm and were given her clothes back by the funeral director. Some kind soul had washed them for us (they had been stained with blood) I often think of that person who took my baby?s clothes home to clean...what a kind gesture.

Dearest Allways
I just wanted to say that there is some hope that there are decent, kind, compassionate souls in this world. That someone took home her wee clothes and washed them for you. As Mishta says, and Mishta is a wise soul who lost her Sheridan when she was a few weeks old, she will always be your girl.
Your voice when you were facing losing her was so very... calm and dignified and strong and loving. You made an enormous impression with many of us here; such love for your girl, such a lack of self pity. You are bound to feel rage now. I feel it for you.
I wish you well, and you too Popsy.
Bee xxx

I am reading all your posts and my heart breaks over and over again. Popsy and Allways, it must be so terribly hard going back to fertility treatment, but I guess there is no other way, the need to try is stronger than the fear that it can all go wrong again. I am sorry your friend doesn't understand Popsy, I think there will be so many times from now on when our anger will come back to the surface...

Allways, in the middle of this despair and grief, the fact that someone washed Rose's clothes is so touching, there is so much compassion in this anonymous gesture. And I completely agree with Bee, there was so much dignity in your voice when you were telling us here about Rose.

Gina, I am glad you found this new hobby, Olivia's memory is well kept.

I have been so, so sad these days, I had another meltdown yesterday evening. I wanted to look at Silvia's photos, feeling that I have to see her, there is no other way, and then when all I had to do was open the folder, I freaked out and said "I can't do it now". There is a massive "what if" hanging over me again, I just can't stop thinking that a miracle might have happened, something to defy all odds, and that I owed it to my daughter to believe in this, because there has never been anyone else to believe for her. The problem is that the prognosis we were given was "only" 95% chances of very severe mental and physical disabilities. They can never say 100%, and although the consultant said the 5% chances were only theoretical, they are the cause of the "what if".

And then there is also this other life that could have been, and although I know I am not pregnant anymore, the thought that I am is still there every morning, that split second before I wake up. And I'll say it here, although it is really silly. I went to buy some clothes a couple of weeks ago, I tried on two skirts and was glad the waist can be stretched...

Anyway, this turned into a long post again when all I wanted was to say hello... typical. Much love xxxx

Dear Coffee I am not really very good at this sort of thing but had to post because I think I know exactly how you are feeling.. I always think the same about my DS - ...what if I had given him that chance.. it might not have been as bad as they thought...I should have had a second opinion...etc it goes on. On days when I think like this I am a mess and then on other days I am quite rational about it and tell myself we made that decision for our son, for ourselves, and for our families. Big hug to you... and I apologise for not responding more personally to you all but you and your cherished babies are in my thoughts x x

Thank you Blondie. You posted in here first when you had a bad day and I replied to your post on what was a better day for me and I remember trying to encourage you. A couple of days later, I was a mess and felt like a failure for saying one thing to you, but not being able to make me believe the same thing. It's just that there are so many ups and downs, and as you say there are days when you know you made the right thing, and some others when you doubt yourself and the choice you made. Big hugs xxxx

Allways, that was a truly kind gesture to wash Rose's clothes. And another mark of respect. I agree with Bee and Coffee and Popsy that your dignity has shone through your posts here. You have done your little girls proud. Not that that takes away the unchangeable loss or the desolate empty feeling that takes so long to go away. But it does show your strength and love.

Bee, the due date of your miscarried baby must be soon. How are you doing? Thinking of you.

Coffee, the 'what ifs' are really hard to handle. I think, for what it is worth, though, that they are symptomatic of a guilt that you would feel whether the future of Silvia had been 100% or not. What I mean is - I still feel that guilt, on one level, from losing Stella, even though her prognosis was 100% terminal. I think it's a guilt for not being able to save our children - which is irrational - and which translates into exactly what you say: guilt at not believing in them enough against all the odds. Justa is very good on guilt in relation to loss - she has her hands full with three little boys but she talks much sense on this. Anyway if it helps, I feel guilty now, still, sometimes, for being happy about a new baby, for having done what I did and yet carried on, for all sorts. And yet other times as Blondie says I am very rational about it.

I should say though while I'm rambling that motherhood seems to be defined by guilt - you can never, ever quite do enough for your children, even the ones who make it to life. You can do as much as possible but they will still get hurt eventually and you can't stop it however much you love them. I think we learn to live with the different types of guilt.

Hi Blondie... how are you?

and hi Popsy, Bezzy, Gina, Viv, everyone else. Tree, Justa, hope you two are okay - Tree you have been so quiet, I miss you. Hope work is okay.

Allways - I was thinking about the lack of cards to acknowledge your babies. Could you maybe get something hand-made with their names to go on your mantlepiece? And someone here also mentioned a statue which sounds like a lovely idea. The eggs you describe sound lovely too.

Mishtabel, oh yes would love to see some photos from you. Thanks for the kind words. Actually the camping last year was a first for the kids and was a kind of therapy for me. I wanted to so something new with them so that I could look back and say "I started camping in 2009" to remember something happy as well as the sadness. I do a lot with my family but the house suffers for it, it is very disorganised, I try to use the renovations as an excuse but I could do better!

Bee - another sad anniversary? You have too many. How is your lovely family, you've not spoken of them recently?

Sorry I have run out of time so a quick wave to everyone else. Also I need to draw back again a little just now. This is actually a good month for me as the photos show its the time of my dd's birthday (next Friday). Its become a ritual every year for us to take photos of her in the daffodil fields, and I just love the Spring, longer days etc.... She will be 8 and is having a party next Saturday and I have to tidy up the house (gulp) so will be strict and not turn on Mumsnet!

love to all. xxxx