Talk : Antenatal support thread for women who have chosen to terminate V

[treedelivery]

Welcome to the 5th thread.

An amazing day to begin a new journey together. The thread babies are arriving and we take this as a positive nod from the great karma controller - whoever and whatever that may be.

Good luck to our thread, to the souls who read, those who post, those who drop in to learn and hold hands.

Our cyber bench is a supportive place, we sit outside hospitals as strong but scared women go to ride their wave. We huddle in our cottage when the weather is bleak, stormy or biting cold.

When the sun shines on us we share stories of real life, gain strength and giggle together in times of warm weather.

babylily, so sorry you've had to come over here. But welcome to our virtual cottage where you can vent, rage or just chat about anything. Numpty has written so well to you.

Mishtabel, you are a wonder managing to post here, asking after us and being careful of our feelings when you are sleep deprived. Just read your post and I think I'd not worry about Bella's weight. She's had a lot to deal with in the early days which must have needed all her energy reserves. I guess the alarm isn't helping her to get enough sleep either! Hope it all gets sorted out soon.

Yes ds2 is a quirky little thing, no it wasn't very windy and he just gets the basic answers as it just leads to more questions. I just love the way he looks at things as yet untainted by conventional thought. Today's question was "why don't sheep brush their hair?"

justa you OK? And tree? And everyone?

Oh yes one question, for those of you who had counselling... when did you do it after your loss, and where? Am interested in your general experiences. Thanks.

xxxx

I feel like I'm coming into everyone's stories half way through. It seems that several of you have had to go through this more than once. Is that right? Do you think we are more likely to have abnormal pregnancies? My heart goes out to those of you who are still in difficult times and I am so cheered by those of you who have had or are carrying your longed for babies. It was just a week ago that we had our scan so I shouldn't be surprised by the fact I'm still all over the place. I don't feel particularly tired but I do feel emotionally vulnerable. All it takes is some kind words from someone and I well up. Also, as distracting as it is to have my DS to look after, he's definitely picked up on the atmosphere in the house and is being quite high maintenance (the meat on his fork was not in the right place on his fork at lunch time which lead to complete tantrum meltdown) and he keeps saying he feels very sad. I read him stories at nap time with tears streaming down my face, so bless him, I shouldn't be surprised he's not himself. I guess I'm also asking myself lots of questions - did I do something to cause it? Rationally, I know the answer is that it was just one of those things that happened to happen to me, but, should I have had my one cup of coffee a day, or should I have abstained completely? Should I have dyed my hair (although waited until 10 weeks for that)? I also feel completely unprepared to deal with anything else difficult. Since our first DS was born my DH was diagnosed with MS. At the moment his symptoms are localised to his leg and largely managed by drugs, but I find myself wondering whether there is anything in his medication that could have caused this to happen. Also this morning DH complained of being kept awake at night by his leg hurting and I almost fell apart. I know I need to support him too but feel so much that my head is only just above water that I can't cope with anything else sad. His MS terrifies me, even though in calmer moments I know the only way to deal with it, as the loss of our baby, is 'a day at a time.'

Moneli - It is hard when you join to 'catch-up' on what everyone has been through. I tried to read back but just found it all too much, don't worry though.

Some of us have been through this more than once (myself included.)

I do not want to upset or alarm anyone but I believe that if it has happened once it may happen again. I was told that it is 'just bad luck' after the termination at 30 weeks, in 2001, of my first daughter. I wish that someone at the time had actually said to me "Yes, it may happen again. Unlikely, but it may."

I genuinely believed that lightening would not strike twice. Sadly in our instance it did and we had to terminate again last year at 14 weeks.

After speaking to several specialists following what happened they all informed me that sadly in most instances we just do not have enough data to say yes or no but they would always err on the side of caution and try to be extra vigilant in subsequent pregnancies.

Please try and believe that you did nothing wrong. It can be very easy to blame yourself, or your DH, for one thing or another and it is hard not to try and identify blame but if I have learned one thing from this it is that life is too short. We just do not know what causes These things to happen.

Coping one day at a time works. For me it was more of one moment at a time. I felt that I was watching the clock trying to distance myself from what had happened as it was the only way I would be able to move on. Take it easy and cry as much as you need. Tell your DS that you love him and are crying because you are so happy to have him. Children are perceptive. My DD last year kept wanting to cuddle.

In terms of trying again. Just do what feels right for you. If you are going to start quickly try to take a multi-vit and folic acid to ensure you are in the best possible health.

Babylily - I am sorry about your loss. I was watching your other thread but could not comment as it felt too raw. I am still quite new to talking here and the others are much more eloquent and able to say the right thing. I start so many posts but give up on them as they suddenly sound wrong when typing.

Losing one child is hard. Having to bear the loss of two is just cruel. Life brings us many challenges and you will become a stronger person following yours. I am able to look back on my decisions and know as hard as they were I would do the same again. Each day as time passes you will feel more at peace over what has passed. I am thinking of you.

Everyone else - I hope you are ok.

Sorry - reading my other post through. I do not want to imply that having one termination/loss due to abnormality is likely to lead to another. I just wish someone had said to me that having one would not ensure you do not suffer again.

As I said, I am not very refined when it comes to putting these thoughts down.

I hope I have not offended or upset.

Allstars - I think you are right in saying it's better NOT to think (or be told) that having lost once, that your next or any future pregnancy is bound to be OK. I think there's too much evidence on Mumsnet of how pregnancy isn't always straightforward despite how it comes across when you are taught the facts of life.

I think that is what make scans so scary for us all, the sense that SOMETHING happened once, so can we be sure things will be OK this time? Let alone that it reminds us of the previous time. I did get a sense that this time would be OK, but having said that with the bleeding early on, also had a sense of who knows what could happen.

But Moneli, don't blame yourself for what happened. Reading between the lines, the problem your baby had was not identified as chromosomal (as in that case NOTHING could have been done from the word 'go'). But I don't think that your DH's medication would have affected development, otherwise it surely wouldn't be licensed or would come with warnings? If you're uncertain, I'm sure the MS Society have a helpline and they may have that sort of information. On that front, I work for a charity dealing with another long-term health condition, and it might be worth looking into 'self-management' courses (teaching pain management, relaxation techniques, action-planning etc). It's all day-to-day stuff that you and your DH may already be doing but it may help. Also diet may be worth considering - as with anything though, it will depend on what works for your DH. But it is hard to be in the supporting role, as I know for the partners of my young volunteers when they have a relapse.

As for toddler tantrums, DS has been having a very funny stroppy day. He's a tired boy, and feeling a bit ill, I think.

Saying that, must go and wake him from his nap otherwise he'll never get to sleep tonight (only napped late on today...).

Bye all, xx

Moneli, what was the problem your baby had? I am sure, whatever, that nothing you did led to this. I understand the casting around for reasons though - it's a way of making sense of what happened; it's only natural. It must be hard for your DS - I think they do sense the atmosphere (how could they not?). It does get easier though.

Hi Babylily, hope you're doing okay.

The question about these things happening more than once... Medical experts have assured me that the two problems my babies had (a chromosomal and a developmental one respectively) are totally unrelated and I have had terrible luck. I agree I have had terrible luck. I am starting to see though that these things do seem often to come twice for whatever reason. I dont know though - I have been told it is very very rare for this to happen twice. And it's probably sanest to believe that or you'd go mad when you tried again.

Hi Eulalia, Bezzy, Justa, Numpty, etc.

Bee - thinking of you.

Cant and NumptyMum, no my baby's condition wasn't chromosomal. In fact at the 12 week scan the baby had a high nuchal measurement and absence of nasal bone, so I went on to have a CVS and it came back completely clear. I still had a sense that something wasn't right though and at 19 weeks the baby was diagnosed with a lethal form of skeletal dysplasia. The anomalies in the 12 week scan are indicators of this, but it is so rare (1 in 20,000) that it is not routinely tested for in CVS. The post mortem will tell us if it's genetic (in which case 1 in 4 chance of it happening again) but one of the professors who did a scan and specialises in this condition had a 'hunch', based on the baby's physical development that our baby had the non genetic version.

Numpty, I think calling the Ms society is a good idea. I'm sure they'll reassure me that the medication is completely safe but maybe I just need to ask the question to reassure myself. Thanks for advice on self management too. DH is maybe in a bit of denial about it all still. I have been looking into diet and making sure we eat healthily and have managed to persuade him to go for acupuncture, which seems to help, but apart from that he really doesn't talk about it much and it's very much business as usual.

I feel guilty for hogging this thread. Sorry to all of you going through equally difficult times and thanks for your helping words x

Moneli, my second lost girl had a non-chromosomal problem that is thought to occur randomly, like yours probably will turn out to be.

Just hopeless bad luck.

It doesn't really help, but at least it means the chances of recurrence are low.

Don't feel guilty. We all hog the thread at times. I've certainly done it! Talking does help.

just wrote the longest message to everyone who has posted for me...only for it to disappear..and haven't got it in me to put it all down again (the drugs are knocking me out).
Have one practical question...
My bleeding stopped on Sunday, the day after. But today it started again with a gush and clots. Last time I bled for 6 weeks and had to have an ERPC, but after a surgical tx I;d have expected the bleeding to be gone by now. Am i wrong? Wasn't given much information on this at the hospital.
Very numb today. Have decided to brave counselling at thr hospital as I need to talk through this all, and i want to prolong the existance of this baby. I feel like this week its okay, i'm expected to be a mess, but after saturday, it's more than a week, its not so recent, will people expect me to get on better?
Not going to go on and on.
Allstars, I know exactly what you mean about the lightening never striking twice...I was told that 'theoretically' I was higher risk for future pregnancies, but in 'reality' I had just been very unlucky and it would not happen again. It was only last week when I first posted here that I discovered that I was not the first and only person to have suffered this horror twice for two different abnormalities. That is one of my questions for the consultant. How many women does he see in this situation more than once? I don't know anyone in RL who has experienced this even once...maybe there is a case for offering a routine appointment for all women who have had such a diagnosis, to talk about the reality of statistics and the possibility of it happening again.
First post without tears. is this the second stage?

Hello Babylily

Irritating when messages get eaten....

Re the bleeding, I had a surgical termination, and the bleeding lasted for roughly 2 weeks afterwards. I then had a couple of weeks off then bled for a few hours, then a couple of weeks again...you get the idea, bleeding was all over the place, and I was led to believe that it's completely normal. I think after a couple of periods, it was back to it's usual 28 day cycle.

Good that you're seeking some help. Great that your hospital is offering it too. I didn't get therapy, and sometimes wonder if I should have.

As for people expecting you to be over it, I don't think you'll find that's the case. I had my termination back in April, and I still have very bad days. I'm not wishing to be a professor of doom, but give yourself time, and please don't worry if you're not back to your usual sunny self in just a few days. You've been through a major trauma, and your friends won't expect you to be over it yet. They just can't relate to what's happened, my friends and family just tended to 'not talk about it' which was irritating, but I guess it was their way of coping too.

Remember, grieving is expected, if you weren't feeling down and depressed, you wouldn't be normal.

Moneli: just to reiterate, you're not hogging, it's the whole purpose of the thread. To offer support to those in need.

Mishta: read your update on the other thread. So glad to hear that Bella is piling on the weight. Well done. You must be so relieved.

Much love to all x x

Hi all,

Babylily, maddening when you lose a post isn't it?
Sadly, some people probably will expect you to start feeling better soon. And maybe if you are having a 'good day' some will think you are getting over it, and will just continue to feel better and better with time. You may even feel this yourself, although having gone through a loss previously, you probably know that it can be one step forward, two steps back for a while. There is no set time that you should be expected to 'feel better'. When we lost our first DD, the one decent thing our councellor did was to give everyone in our families booklets on the greiving process and losing a baby. It helped our family know what to expect and how to support us (those who read them anyway); to know that there are times when it is likely to be harder (birthdays, anniversaries, approx 6 weeks after when reality really sets in). I found it really helped and many of our family made an effort to reach out to us at these times. If you see a councellor, perhaps ask if they have any leaflets etc such as these for you to give to the people that matter

Moneli, don't ever think you are hogging the thread. As Cant said, we have all done it. The thread is here to support anyone who needs it, when they need it

Speaking of which, thanks everyone for your thoughts and reassurance. Feeling better today as Bella has put on almost 3oz

Bezz, I just looked up the latest ideas on Sids recurrence in families as I didn't know what current thoughts were on this. Apparently it is now considered that there is no more risk than there is with the general population. I worry more though as our third dd had central and obstructive sleep apnoea as a baby. With central sleep apnoea, the brain has periods of not communicating with respiratory system, so the baby doesn't even attempt to breathe. Our dd3 was right once she was put on medication. We observed this apnoea in our first daughter, but unfortunately never had her tested for it. So far I haven't noticed any prolonged apnoeic episodes with Bella, but am still paranoid. She'll have a sleep study done soon.
Now, totally off the topic, but did you ever hear back about that accident? Hopefully he was rich enough that he is happy just to have it fixed without bothering you. Do we know he is a he?

Lins, Shangrila, Justa - if you're around, how are you and your babies. Would love to hear

Peanuthead, all the best to you if you can read this from where you are

wishing you all a good day xxx

ps, Eulalia, loving DS2's question of the day. How does he think up this stuff?

I rabbited on so much I X-posted with you Bezz

Nope, no word on the merc i crashed into....at the risk of sounding sexist, it's HAS to be a man's car.

It was HUGE.

Just quick post as am off out in a minute. Babylily, any chance you can get a weekend away? 2 weeks after my termination we all went away for 3 days and it really helped. Bleeding had nearly stopped and I just felt I wanted to do something happy. Was a quiet weekend in log cabin and nearby pool and don't know if I was a bit numb but actually was one of the best breaks I've had. I think just having loved ones around and the trauma kind of heightens feelings (good as well as bad) and the relaxed calm atmosphere helped. As we left the chalet I got a bit panicky as I knew I'd have to think about it all again. But when we got home I felt like I'd made a separation between the bad stuff and the beginning of getting better. Of course its only the beginning and early days for you and I think others wouldn't expect anything of you. Don't worry about them, concentrate on yourself and come on here as much as you need to.

moneli - please hog away, that's what we are here for!

Mishtabel - fantastic news!

Want to talk more but I have to go down to the school.

love to all xxx

PS bezzy, you know what they say about men with big cars !

Hello Babylily, I've not been posting much on this side as I've been over on the pregnancy/sister thread. Unfortunately I had an ERPC last week as things hadn't worked out for me so I'm just popping m head in from time to time and keeping a low profile. I'm very sorry that you've had to come and join us but you will find a lot of support here and answers from people who are further down the troubled road we've all travelled. I just wanted to say, yes, the bleeding will be on and off for a bit but do keep your eye on it. It's definitely to be expected for the first couple of weeks without a doubt. Unfortunately, as it the hormonal rollercoaster, so you definitely shouldn't be expected to feel better after a week. In my experience it took a good couple of weeks for my body to realise it wasn't pregnant anymore and then after that 2 weeks I felt very sad too as I didn't feel pregnant anymore and the sense of loss hit me quite hard. The reason why I say keep an eye on the bleeding is that after my last tx I started bleeding and cramping again 4 weeks afterwards and found that this was because there was some remaining tissue left. Initially I was given very strong antibiotics which half helped but I ended up having an ERPC about 6 weeks after my tx.

I had counselling after my last termination. I didn't feel the need to have it the first time but I was so confused and angry that this had happened twice that I decided to take advantage of the fact the hospital had offered it to me. I found it really helpful. Not just talking directly about my loss but also about lots of other things that were going on at the time which were overwhelming me on top of everything else. It's just good to ease the burden and have someone to rant to, cry in front of, try and make sense of your feelings without worrying if you're being judged and also with someone who is not getting involved in the conversation to satisfy their own curiosity (which I sometimes feel with some of my friends, even though I know they mean well).

I had a similar experience to Eulalia. I went away for a couple of weeks, although not immediately after my tx, it was almost 3 months later, but I did feel that when I came back I was ready to start a new chapter. As if the trip had drawn the line between what had happened and what was ahead.

Give yourself plenty of time. As my other half would say, sometimes you will feel ok and then it will just come and bite you on the bum when you're not expecting it. Sometime it's good to indulge your sadness and not try to push it away and be brave and sometimes it's good to make yourself do something positive to steer your thoughts into a different direction. You will find the right balance for yourself.

big car = big wallet

suspect you're thinking of something else though

shame on you Eulalia!

How are our newbies? chilly night here, think we should snuggle up on the sofa with a mulled wine and girly dvd.

Bee - we miss you. Hope you're ok angel.

Love to all

BK x

I always thought big cars were compensation for something else that was a little... lacking? But also depends on what type of big car. I suspect an Estate is in a different category! (ie big car = big family).

Very happy to snuggle up on the sofa - what's the girly DVD? Partial to a bit of Pride & Prejudice myself (either the old series, or the new film).

Bee - thoughts with you, as with Babylily, Moneli and Peanuthead. xx

Dear all of you
Bee here. Been buzzing around like a bee possessed and am utterly drained and depleted.
Busy time at work, four hours driving three days in a row. In the daytime am functioning well really. At night am consumed by the most crippling anxiety and nightmares that feel so tangible and real.
The whole thing, the whole damn thing of it overwhelms me still.
I am moved by the stories here. Babylily, your raw voice, the utter devastation you have revealed is so very reminiscent of my voice on the very first thread here. I was crushed, living in an emotional spot unlike anything I have ever witnessed or experienced before. My very first thread on mumsnet was
'Pregnant again after a termination for Down's'- and in it I was consumed with anxiety about my pregnancy. This second baby had Down's too and I terminated the pregnancy.
See how I write it down so easily, with so little explanation of the torture I went through, but I know that you know.I have since had a miscarriage too.
What I am trying to say is, I hear you, I understand, I know how hard it is, how unreal.
And yes there are sadly many of us who have been through this more than once; I do not know why. The medics do not know why; but I guess the history of this thread will show that there are many women in their thirties nad forties who will go through this more than once. Chance? Environment, aged eggs? Who knows. But for every one of us who has gone through it twice, there are dozens of women who have gone on to have a healthy baby. The horror is, of course, for all of us here, that we do not know who will and who will not.
And so we brave it, we try. And for some of us there is an agonising nine month wait and a precious bundle of loveliness at the end, and for others the journey is interrupted by tragedy.
I am so sorry you have endured this.
And you too Moneli- it is utterly heartbreaking and you are allowed to be as tearful, as wretched as you like.
It wanes, it ebbs and flows. The terrible irony for me is that as more time passes from the losses I feel almost sad that I am no longer close to the experience, the loss, the baby. I think you are expressing this already Babylily. That you want to feel connected to the baby through counselling, maybe through this space too. I understand.
Please do rest here a while; as long as you like. Say whatever needs saying and never ever feel that you are dominating the space.
This thread was hard fought for, personally it holds me upright, it is a monument to those tiny lives, it is brave of us to post, it is necessary, it is agony but it is necessary. You will find kind, kind souls and more than that... friends.
Hugs and kisses to you both
Bee xxxxx

Hello all, I hope everyone is doing OK and that counselling at the hospital helps you Babylily. I think that being able to talk to someone impartial about everything you are feeling can only help. And you really shouldn't rush to get better. This has happened to me for the first time (also 1 week ago) so I'm no expert, but I don't think anyone will expect you to be feeling better within a week. You (we) need to go through a range of feelings before we start feeling better, we need to be easy on ourselves; it's OK for us to talk about this as much as we need to with friends. It's also OK to have days when you don't feel like talking about anything with anyone.
I'm doing OK. A bit up and down but that's to be expected. I mentioned in an earlier post how tricky my 2yr DS was being. He was having so many tantrums about so many minor things, and his sleep has been very disturbed (up every 1 or 2 hours) that I was feeling really guilty about how my mood was affecting him. Anyway, this morning I saw that one of his big back molars is almost through, so while some of his bad mood was maybe down to me, most of it was probably due to teething. That was a big consolation for some reason.
I went to the DRs today too, mainly to update them but also to ask questions. One of the questions I asked was why wait 6 weeks before trying again. I'm not planning on doing anything rash but the way I see it is, as sad as my DH and I are about the loss of this baby, we do still want another baby and with age not on my side, if we do have sex within the next 6 weeks I would find it pretty upsetting to take precautions to stop myself getting pregnant unless there was a very good medical reason for it. The Dr said there was no good reason, apart from knowing that your periods have returned to normal. Have any of you heard of anything else?
Wishing you all a very good weekend x

Hi everyone

Babylily, hope the bleeding has subsided somewhat. I had medical terminations but the bleeding was very erratic afterwards - sometimes barely there and then very heavy. Another horrible part of it...

Moneli, I've not heard the 6 week thing. My logic in waiting for the first period to pass was that after my first termination, I had a horrible first period and I felt as though it was getting rid of some stuff that hadnt completely come away in the termination, so I wanted to feel it was all definitely over before I conceived again. But that was personal logic not medical advice. I'm glad it was 'just' your DS's molars bothering him. I worried a lot about how my state of mind would affect my DD after each termination. It didn't seem to, in fact.

Hi Bee - typical generous post from you, and so eloquently put. How are you doing?

All okay here. Thinking of everyone.

Hi everyone

Babylily, hope the bleeding has subsided somewhat. I had medical terminations but the bleeding was very erratic afterwards - sometimes barely there and then very heavy. Another horrible part of it...

Moneli, I've not heard the 6 week thing. My logic in waiting for the first period to pass was that after my first termination, I had a horrible first period and I felt as though it was getting rid of some stuff that hadnt completely come away in the termination, so I wanted to feel it was all definitely over before I conceived again. But that was personal logic not medical advice. I'm glad it was 'just' your DS's molars bothering him. I worried a lot about how my state of mind would affect my DD after each termination. It didn't seem to, in fact.

Hi Bee - typical generous post from you, and so eloquently put. How are you doing?

All okay here. Thinking of everyone.

Moneli, I'm sorry, I don't know if I've said hello or acknowledged you. My brain has been a bit frazzled of late so I'm sorry, I didn't mean to be rude. I think the 6 week thing is to do with the fact that your period generally takes 6 weeks to come after a pregnancy. They told me I should wait 3 months, I think that's more for emotional reasons than medical ones. Although I was told that it would be ideal to wait 3 months. I had a really bad experience with my last/2nd termination at which my charming surgeon (I went into theatre completely conscious) actually said "Oh well, you can try again in 3 months". Lovely.

They do say it's possible to get pregnant before your period comes back, and that it can happen very easily during this time. In fact, a lot of people do fall pregnant under these circumstances and have perfectly healthy pregnancies. I feel slightly inclined to start trying again during this patch, once the 2 week post op sex ban is over. If it's easy to fall pregnant during this time, and I'm 40 so time isn't on my side, why not. Although, I've had a miscarriage and am feeling a lot less emotionally devastated by it than by my two Downs Syndrome pregnancies. The one reason I would say in favour of waiting a bit longer is that if, god forbid, you should suffer a loss again it won't be as raw. It's devastating enough without putting yourself through something like that twice in the space of say, 6 months. That said, only you can judge how strong you feel and when you will be ready to try again.

Hello, thanks for advice Cant and Havingkittens. What an unbelievably insensitive thing for your surgeon to say HavingKittens. We saw a geneticist at our hospital whose speciality was our baby's condition. Her excitement at having a real case of her own was almost palpable, and seemed a bit distasteful to DH and I.
I am feeling so much like I want to be pregnant again and have something to look forward to. I guess I'm needing to focus on something positive in the future to feel a bit better about all of this. I am of course worried that something similar will happen again, but tbh I'm so anxious about any possible future scans that I sort of want to just march on and deal with whatever is thrown at me. I think I feel like I need to be taking a positive action rather than waiting around for some indefinite deadline. Like you HavingKittens I am a little concerned about my age (38), also given that my Mum and Grandmother had early menopauses at 40. I don't want to miss any opportunity. Anyway, I called the hospital too and talked to a very kind midwife who said if I don't wait the 6 weeks they suggested it won't do any harm and it won't increase the likelihood of anything bad happening again. It's good to know that.
I hope that everyone else is doing OK x