support thread for women who have chosen to terminate IV

[bezzyk]

Hello ladies old and new.

Here's hoping this thread brings better luck and much happiness.

Lots of love

BK xx

He does, but I was probably thinking more about cultural shops

watch an episode it is really quite funny.

He's the red triangle.

Well - first time I have laughed spontaneously out loud at something from the internet for a while. I love Mr Rude! He just blew a raspberry at me. I like the look of Mr Pernickty too - I think him and I may have alot in common. Apparently I am 'the most critical person in the Northern hemisphere' according to LM. What does he know? With his too curly hair, funny way of eating and obsession with football. Oops.
Ps - shops are full of crapola wherever you live Tree - I wandered around Jigsaw, Toast, Whistles, Kew, French Connection and Gap yesterday and got.... one measly nasty blue poloneck that makes me look like I live in the Home Counties. Not that i have anything against the home counties you understand. Knitwear, so easy to get wrong i find.

He's lovely isn't he? Mr Rude. I'm sure LM is too.

You think you have problems. Mine says 'Like what we have' instead of 'Like we have', and jumps off the bottom 2 steps. He also fails to trim his nails unless I threaten him.

Pah.

I tried of a cardi in Laura Ashley that actually had sleeves. I despair of 3/4 or short sleeves on a cardi. It's cold! It actually didn't make me look like a wooly Mammoth or hairy tank.
It was £32 but still too pricey for us. I was still heartened though. It's here and mega cheap but not my size. Tut.

Maybe it was a bit too brown though.

Actually they have some very cheap woolies there. Am getting distracted by a blue 100% wool jumper/top for £13.

What an interesting observation Bee. I am not sure though. Termination itself isnt a taboo in fiction - I've read lots of novels where a woman terminates, usually because she's in an adulterous relationship/suffering psychologically/etc. Just none where the termination is because the baby had abnormalities. Is that because people judge us harshly, or because they genuinely aren't really aware of it happening?

I ask because I wasn't, not really. Over a year ago, pregnant with Turners baby, I had bleeding from 6-8 weeks so had a scan at 8 weeks. All looked well. I toddled to the nuchal scan only really thinking about the heartbeat still being there, and feeling quite positive because if you see a heartbeat at 8 weeks, chances of miscarriage are very low, etc. I had totally forgotten that the nuchal was there to screen for abnormalities too. And you know what? I had always thought people didnt tell people they were pregnant till after the 12 week scan in case they miscarried. Now I know it's just as much in case they end up terminating.

Nobody has judged me I dont think; certainly no medical professional has been anything other than sympathetic and understanding (well except the booking in midwife this time, who wasn't judgey, just totally unfeeling towards the history). I think people wouldn't judge if they knew more. But then I suppose judgement is usually arrived at out of ignorance...

Please please please can I be a proofreader for the novel? I love the idea of a Bee book. Intrigued by notion of co-author though as you have a very singular Bee-voice.

Katie, for what it's worth, I agree that you shouldnt rush into CVS. As I understand it, Turners tends to make itself obvious at nuchal. And one thing I have learnt through all of this is that even an all-clear CVS wouldn't mean a problem-free baby. You have to have some faith, to an extent.

On another note, does anyone else get irritated by flagrant display of fertility goddessdom on the part of many celebs? I read some trashy gossip magazines the other day and so many celebs announce they are planning huge families, or that their husband/partner only has to look at them and the baby pops out, and then of course they don't have liposuction/personal trainers but somehow lose the baby weight just like that. OOne annoying one said she lost her baby weight going upstairs to collect a new nappy every time her baby needed one. Ha ha.

Phew, I was off on a serious tangent while you were talking Mr Men and clothes. Pah, I missed out. Oh well.

I like that cardi, Tree. I am puzzled by the fashion in shortsleeved cardigans, as a chilly mortal living in the frozen north. And I love brown, but I look vile in it...

Tree - got to be blue I think. Grey is the new brown apparently. Mine was £20 from Benetton and has not changed my life massively.
This is what I meant re judgey ness Cantdo.
Following my initial post way back in April, there was a rather insidious (from some people) backlash around the whole termination topic. See, for example, a thread entitled something along the lines of ' Why does an abnormality turn a wanted baby into a termination? and a whole thread that disapproved of mine even being in the pregnancy section in the first place. Although I was pregnant- just full of fear since I had already had a termination for DS. I understand now that it was not necessarily appropriate to have it there and it may upset some people, not that they were obliged to read it of course. There were posts on a thread that was very active that objected to us calling these babies 'angels' etc.
All of this is what lead to the creation of ANte-natal testing and choices in the first place. We are now in the more healing position of not being invaded by others who feel we have committed a crime. Believe me, there are many who feel we have. If a novel were written where a character had terminated for abnormalities, i suspect it would be enormously controversial. I know full well that social termination is well portrayed in fiction - i have a degree in English!- but what we have experienced? Nope. And if I were to write a confessional type article or book, I just know it would provoke the wrath of many. It would Cant. People have many different beliefs and attitudes and rightly so. People have children with the abnormalities we have terminated for. They feel strongly. Sorry if I am ranting or being harsh, but this is how it is. I realise that professionals, family and the women here are mutually supportive and lend a kind and empathetic ear but this is not true for everyone. My posts and Lins's posts - before this support thread- inflamed some readers. They literally posted ON OUR THREADS to say they thought we were making a mistake - certainly on mine. And this is on mumsnet. So, what I am saying is, that society has a much more tolerant attitude to social termination that termination for abnormalities. It is the last great taboo of pregnancy. I find it very upsetting as it caused me such turmoil and sorrow when I read these posts. That is why we have this place, why we need it.
God, sorry to rant.
It makes me cry with unjustice.
Bee xxxxxx

Bee, I wonder if our paths crossed yesterday. I too was wondering round the same shops as you! Well, not Toast or Whistles - bit too pricey for me! I did get a rather nice black & white breton jumper from Bennetton for £17 - again with the 3/4 sleeves! So annoying that they do that. I mean, my personal style is very much influenced by the 40s and 50s BUT, it's not the 50s anymore and ladies don't wear long gloves with everything so bloody well make proper sleeves! Last winter it was even worse, all the bloody cardigans had short sleeves. I mean, I ask you.... what's the point of that?

Yes, Bee, we should meet up for a coffee/cake/chat sometime.

Once again this year I am in clothing limbo whilst the sales are on! Don't want to buy maternity type stuff as I feel that would be too presumptious at the moment but also not sure if there's much point in buying other stuff (apart from cardis etc) at the mo. OH bought me a gorgeous dress which I will wear tomorrow (and probably freeze as it's a halter neck) and maybe one more time and then possibly never fit back into it again. lol.

The fish restaurant is a closely guarded secret at the moment so I'll let you know after the event. Will probably go for lunch tomorrow too and possibly to the cinema to see the new film about Ian Dury and The Blockheads which has had very good reviews.

-I just feel this space was hard fought for and it gives us a safe spot that we need but also means we are public. It is enormously, enormously valuable, life-saving even for some women to have that space.
But, and I may be wrong, it provokes strong backlash feelings too in some women and I want to PROTECT myself and you and all of us from it. Does that make sense Cant?
Tree and Justa were involved in trying to represent our voices and feelings to those that did not understand. It is why they are still here I think. It is a minority of women who would judge, I do not feel judged in my daily life, but I feel vulnerable to the opinions of the small minority. Partly because I do not wish to cause offence to those who do bring up children with disabilites and partly because I am too raw to cope with their wrath. Does that make sense? I maybe am not articulating myself well. I have mentioned 'judgement' when really I may mean 'fear of judgement'. In fact I do not care about being judged when I think about it carefully. What I care about is having those original, tortuous feelings, the hell of deciding, the terrible loss and trauma, the desolation of choosing to end a little life, having those thoughts and feelings dragged back up. That is the fear. That if I were to write about it in a more public way than here, that they words of others would force me to confront that agony.
God, going to stop now as not sure am clarifying or muddling.
Hope you are okay and am not bringing up things that are better left. I am grappling so hugely with 'what to do'.
Bee xx

Those were hard times. Probably for those who were on the opposite side too. Everyone felt a sense of being under attack.

You're right Bee, a book would would provoke a fecker of a sand storm. Would it help? I don't know. Unfortunatey the human consition seems to crave polarisation. Black and white answers to questions that have no answers. Maybe debate would simply polarise and brutalise this echoey marble empty hall where the posters on this thread wander about. Trying to find each other in the blinding white light.

That's how I viualise trauma, always, bright white lights. And clanging noises.

I think that where fetal medicine is at is new new new new. It changes almost monthly also.
Social termination is old as the hills and took generations to be legalised, medicalised and accepted in the loose sense of the word. Termination for genetic conditions will be no different at all I guess.

We are in a strange place this centuary. Nothing can become 'the done thing' or become part of common experience, because medicine and science are rocketing ahead. No one can get used to anything at one level, before it shifts up another 5 levels beyond the comfort zone. Shifting sand all the time.

Even the Dr's look dizzy sometimes.

Yes Bee you are right. But why why why? I don't get the judgyness at all. I genuinely don't.

I perhaps avoided it because my babies couldnt have lived, so even the most judgey person could only have accused me of bringing forward an inevitable death. Or more likely I avoided it because I didnt tell anyone!!! I wasnt around in your early days and I genuinely appreciate this haven of unjudgeyness.

It makes me really angry actually. I know it's sensitive. But people need to know how much agony we've all been through. You are so right that a memoir would bring you a backlash of not just criticism but hatred, too.

Though in a way that is precisely why that memoir needs to be written, to show people - and precisely why we cant write it, because we're so vulnerable already, and can't expose ourselves further. It makes me want to weep too. Please write something Bee. It would be brilliant. I wish you would.

On a lighter note again, I am short with short arms. So 3/4 length sleeves are like full length on me. Which is good.

You all keep writing faster than me!

I think I get what you are all saying. I understand why people are hurt if they feel that we are somehow implying that their children's lives arent worth living. But that must be a minority - what do the great majority, who have little experience of disability or termination, what do they think? I genuinely dont know. That was me, 18 months ago. I do know I wouldnt have judged.

I want Bee to write because I think she has a gift. And she never writes in black and white - she conveys the ambiguities so so beautifully. But I see that Bee writing would be exposing herself to more fear, shame, vulnerability. And Bee, like all of us, needs to protect herself.

You know what? It's probably better that people don't know about our world. To know it properly you have to live through it. And that sucks, as we all know.

Interestingly, it has been written about in France. Why the difference?...

That is not how to spell constitution.

This is the place to bring up the things that anywher else are better left. This is why we are here.

Because you unlucky people haven't got the luxury of being able to leave it. You have had this happen to you, and someone has told you it is your choice so crack on.

It can't be left. It is your big heavy burden of choice. And we have been sold a dud, because choice only really exists when people can judge the result of their choice. If I choose red paint, I will have a red wall. Fine.
As we do not have crystal balls, we can' have all the information to make proper choices in screening. It's a myth. If I choose a cvs I might miscarry. The baby might have a syndrome. The syndrome might be severe, or might be quite mild. The baby might have nothing of the sort.

How is that information to make a choice?

Yes, you are right Tree. It was hard for women on both sides of the debate and most of the gentler souls were not on one or the other. I am not on one or the other. I do not think it is a matter of right and wrong. Nor do you or any of us here.
Confronted with such a shocking set of circumstances, I think we have all tried to let our feelings and thoughts, our rationality and reactions, respond to the situation.
We have sobbed, then talked, then sobbed, then reached out here or at Arc, then sobbed. Then talked. Until we felt we had settled on what felt like the least dreadful decision.
But for each of our decisions, there is someone out there who has made a different one. Not better, or worse, but different.
I do care so very much for the women whose train stops at this particular station, as i remember the foggy platform, that there was no one at the ticket office. That I had stopped at a lonely, dark station with no address book, no phone and no freind. I hope that this is like a station waiting room from a gentler age - where there is always a Perkins from The Railway Children - where the fire is always lit and there is always someone to lead you and your baggage to the cottage.
Why did I go here this morning?
I suppose I feel a bit like a Che Guevara revolutionary; fighting for recognition of the pain that we have all suffered. I feel there needs to be a monument on the platform to recognise and advertise our safe space.

A row of soapboxes for Tree, Cant and Bee. All posts here are criss-crossing aren't they?
It makes me angry too Cant, and sad. And that is why I am still here even though am not pregnant (another tear) and even though so many of you are and I am of course longing for it to be me too. Longing to join in.
It is as if at our station, when we are well again, there are two destinations. Some of us hop on the train destined for a baby, the carriage is not comfortable, it is hard to sleep there too.
And I am on a branch-line; I can see your train departing and I wave to you. But I am not allowed on as I do not have the right ticket.
Oh dear, am sobbing now.
So, my train has fewer people on and whilst I know that your journey is wracked with difficulty, I would rather be on it with you, than alone in mine.

I think Bee what you have is total intuition and insight. You are not able to limit your trauma and choices you yourself, you do not make decisions based on how you are feeling and what you want to do.

You base them on your evaluation of the whole issue. Every last point of view that could be raised is looked at and examined and put in it's cultural context. You consider the ripples you make in the universe.

It makes you one of those who can inform society, you have the power to change the picture. Be that for better or worse, or for neither or somewhere in the middle. You as an individual will have your ass whooped in the process.

Some people are pioneers, in their own world. You are one of them. And I think that is why you don't know which way to go now, you are out front and there is no map.

But I will carry your bags for you. x

Oh Tree.
Having a total flood of sorrow and crying my eyes out. Cannot even see the screen. I am so glad you are carrying the bags though - as they are so heavy.
x

If you are wondering why I am here mulling over these deep things, it is because I am hostage in my bed. DD2 is asleep on my belly, has been since 10am, and growls if I move.

I need a wee.

I think it's been coming Bee and we are here to pass the tissues and do the sush/pat hugs.

I need a wee too and have been at this desk for hours. Think I needed a good weep though fellow travellers so thank you for being there whilst I did so.
Bloody hell

Passing tissue for tears not wee.

Though I would if I had too I suppose....

Oh good god, would someone just send me to Justa's church for a conversion? I really think it may help.

Oh and I do love a baby to be asleep on the body. So not Gina Ford I know. But hey, precious and short time it happens for. I could do with a hug of her; please pass her over whilst you go for your wee.

God I meant a hug of Hatty not Gina.