support thread for women who have chosen to terminate IV

[bezzyk]

Hello ladies old and new.

Here's hoping this thread brings better luck and much happiness.

Lots of love

BK xx

Oh Bee. Cry, cry cry. Please let it out.

I wish we were on the train together too. You and me and Bezzy. We should be.

Not sure about a conversion though.

Ha. Gina doesn't so hugs I don't think.

Infact Gina would use me as an example of 'why to buy my book'

You are right - no conversion needed. Will go and make a chilli instead. Yes, food is the answer. Glad cried with you two. Best way. Cathartic. But with a friendly chat at the end.

Bee, I wonder if our paths crossed yesterday. I too was wondering round the same shops as you! Well, not Toast or Whistles - bit too pricey for me! I did get a rather nice black & white breton jumper from Bennetton for £17 - again with the 3/4 sleeves! So annoying that they do that. I mean, my personal style is very much influenced by the 40s and 50s BUT, it's not the 50s anymore and ladies don't wear long gloves with everything so bloody well make proper sleeves! Last winter it was even worse, all the bloody cardigans had short sleeves. I mean, I ask you.... what's the point of that?

Yes, Bee, we should meet up for a coffee/cake/chat sometime.

Once again this year I am in clothing limbo whilst the sales are on! Don't want to buy maternity type stuff as I feel that would be too presumptious at the moment but also not sure if there's much point in buying other stuff (apart from cardis etc) at the mo. OH bought me a gorgeous dress which I will wear tomorrow (and probably freeze as it's a halter neck) and maybe one more time and then possibly never fit back into it again. lol.

The fish restaurant is a closely guarded secret at the moment so I'll let you know after the event. Will probably go for lunch tomorrow too and possibly to the cinema to see the new film about Ian Dury and The Blockheads which has had very good reviews.

Well there you are you see Justa? I imagine you have enlightened, intelligent friends no? Why, oh why, would someone object to this thread? We have been moved out of pregnancy, we state quite clearly who we are supporting... Would the woman in question object to
us being here at all?
The fact we have chosen what we have?
The fact that we do not deserve support?
What exactly? It baffles me in modern day, secular society that a woman's choices can still be disrespected and villified. It will always shock and sadden me. I am damned if I write a book but damned if I do not it seems.
Lovely to see you here again Justa; i will always remember how you put your lovely head above he proverbial parapet for us. You were even more villified than we were.

God can be useful as when you get to the end of the line and have no clue anymore you can just say 'I dunno. You do it'

Chilli is good too, especially with sour cream.

Funny if Bee and Kittens were stood in a check out que together. Your Saturday sounds fab kittens.

Hello Justa!! Fantastic weather for a babymoon
I think your being here on the thread is one of the nicest and soundest things I have heard of in a long long time. Possibly one of the most positive vibes I have had from a religion type person or gesture ever.

Well, since the priest that married us said to dd1 in the middle of it all 'any fool can see you were born of love' and not saying 'and out of wedlock' under his breath

Oh if churches and religions would stop trying to sell and convert, I think they would be much more comfortable places to hang out.

I completely get that.
You are a wise cookie Justa.

Dearest Justa
On a more pleasant and fresh note, how is that wee little man doing and, more importantly, how are you my love?
Are you beginning to heal?
Are you snug as a bug in a rug in your home with all your many men?
I do hope so.
Bee

Now I tell you what happened to me.

I got a Christmas card from someone. Sold in support of the Pro-Life organisation.

It really upset me. Totally floored me actually. I felt like shit for ages afterwards.
It felt so personal and invasive and like they were assuming who and what I was.

I was tempted to say 'won't put that one up in the fetal med office then' but I couldn't as I'm not even there anymore.

Totally their right to buy nad do as they like. It gave me the shivers though.

Rare post from me.

Just wanted to say to Bee, you're not alone, I'm squashed up next to you on the train.

It's cold on here, we need to share warmth.

Love to everyone, sorry I've not been around, not able to post at the moment. Too much going on.

BK x

Hello bezzyk. Great to 'see' you. Hope you are ok.

Oh poor poor you Justa. What a time you have had of it!

Just read your thoughts on the matter dearest gentle one. Can I make a confession? This is what you do for us troubled souls in such a genuinely compassionate and non- pushy way. You help give words and a narrative to the eternal condition of womankind darling. You help identify the dilemma of free will, help us to soothe the spirit once that dilemma has been confronted, annoint the wounds that occur and recur, offer comfort at the various grieving stages en route.
I have faced my own concepts of good and evil, of making the right choice for myself and my loved ones, I have evaluated what constitutes goodness. I have tried to act out of love.
And I continue to try to do so; I think that when I talk here of the friendships gathered and how valuable they are to me, well it is so different to daily friendship as we have accompanied one another on a journey that is unlike any that we have faced thus far.

If spirituality is the sharing of the soul, of offering up one's most personal and intimate thoughts and feelings to the greater (community of faith or of friendship or of family), of looking out for one's neighbour, then I have found it.
I do not need a church.
I already have one here.
You have been so much a part of that Justadoodles.

Bloody hell women, am I ever going to cook today?!
Tree - that card. Good lord above. That is way too political for Christmas surely. How troubling. Surely it came from the US?

Bezzy, Bezzy, Bezzy; you are in my carriage darling, you really are. I have got a cashmere blanket each, yes each!, and the most wonderful hamper of goodies and it is most definitely not a modern train. We are talking steam train through the Cotswolds here, we are talking tea dresses and clipped Celia Johnson consonants a la Brief Encounter. It is not unpleasant - we just miss our friends.
I like your little message.Kisses.

Our train is like the train in Polar Express - hot, hot, hot chocolate. I think we can have a seat for you my dear. Snuggle up; ice on the line ahead, may cause some delays.

Can I be Tree the Tea Lady and wear a tabard?

Such a busy thread today, and such deep thoughts.

I remember that thread about abnormalities turning a 'wanted baby into an unwanted baby', it was around the time I learned that Iola faced severe problems. It made me want to scream, I was raging that anyone could simplify things to that extent - as if the experience I was going through factored out the baby and I no longer cared for her. But a) I was not in a good place to be able to respond and b) like much 'car crash TV' I could see they were wanting to provoke a debate between extremes. Most people don't voice opinions because most people truly don't know what they would think or do faced with our situation; and that is good because I think you can only decide based on your own circumstances - you, your other half, other children, what the prognosis is for the baby you are carrying... but for no-one is that decision easy. I am still grateful for the advice that 'no-one regretted taking too long to make the decision'.

And funnily, I think this thread is one of the most truly impartial places on Mumsnet. I can't see that anyone on here would go to another thread and voice a strong opinion about what the OP should do. Instead they would acknowledge the difficulties and complexities that exist, and offer support and understanding. I am SO SO grateful this thread started, yet I am so sad that it was due to the antipathy Bee experienced on her own thread. Each woman, each circumstance, each 'prognosis' is different.

So I can see your point about not wanting to raise your head above the parapit, Bee.

It is sad that (if I remember rightly) SANDS threads also had to be shut down because of nastiness about people who had chosen to end pregnancies - as if doing so late in pregnancy was an option that people would choose lightly, esp if they have come to SANDS seeking support/comfort .

I am just glad that there is a place like this that people can voice their feelings, sorrows, confusion and receive gentle support. Thank you ALL.

To this day I think I very probably put a match to the whole thing by asking posters on Bee's thread to not ask her to consider not terminating.

Sorry about that everyone

I felt very defensive towards Bee, but in hindsight I think it made people in...er...certain situations..feel they were allowed no voice.
Which then caused a mushroom cloud over mumsnet.
I did sail forth and engage in the debate. Which felt on a certain level like a betrayal of 'here' but then - debate. Opinions and rights to have them, that is why I am on this thread and so I live and die by the sword. So I did it, uncomfortable as it was.

I also wanted to show that it is possible to be here, and not think that all differences are bad, all imperfections must be eradicated. That being here on this thread does not mean everything is hunky dory, problem removed so lets all move on and be happy.
I felt there was a real risk that that was the way it was going. That made me a bit sick tbh.

So I ploughed in and tried to learn, see where everyone was coming from. I did learn a lot, about how some mothers out there are made to feel, day in and out, by society. I could also give a bit of knowledge now and then, and feedback some experiences from a service provider pov. I spent 5 years offering the triple test on a daily basis at least twice.

I didn't hear anything that made me want to do anything but be on this road with you ladies.

Gosh a huge flurry of deep conversations since I last logged in and we were on cardigans. Bee, the book, you have to do it ? when I first found you girls I think I asked if you were a writer as you have such an amazing way with words and such an emotive tone. If anyone could tell our story it?s you.

On the subject of judgyness (love the word) I have really struggled with this too. There seems to be a much greater stigma attached to terminating a pregnancy with abnormalities than terminating an unplanned or unwanted pregnancy ? I wonder why? I also find it astonishing that other people feel able to comment on what they would do in such a situation without having experienced it first hand ? how can you possibly say without being put in such a heart breaking situation? Threads along the lines of ?I?ve decided not to take the NT test because the results don?t matter to me? make me want to scream - still perhaps I?m just jealous of the ignorant bliss.

The statistics speak for themselves though ? when 92% of downs pregnancies are terminated you wonder where all these people were in the woodwork. I suspect it?s very easy to take the moral high ground but in the cold light of day few are able to stand by their words

Have good weekends one and all xxx

Tree and Numpty, hello.
I do not think the reaction and the strength of it were down to any one voice expressed on my original thread Tree.
My first thread was called;
pregnant after a termination for downs.
It was obvious I had already had one, it was clear I had struggled enormously, clear that I had considered all options, clear I was in pain. At no stage did i ask for advice on whether to terminate or not.
So, once the second diagnosis came through, yes I was in deep shock. And I do not blame anyone for suggesting that I kept the baby. There are women who have children with disabilities who feel as protective and political as I know feel about all of you. And in other circumstances, as you know, I may have kept my child with DS and I would have had the loudest voice of them all. Fighting for my child. I do not think however that I would ever try and sway the opinion of someone who had made a decision one way or the other. That is why I felt so hurt. Because I was judged openly in a room that I had asked for, that I needed for support in my decision.
The counter arguments that subsequently raged on the site issues topic were so violent and passionate and some of them at least, opinionated and personal. I was so very vulnerable - I was horrified that my experience, my unborn baby and my pain had provoked such anger and indignation.
I felt evicted, and judged and all at a time when I was falling apart.
I do not believe that your role aggravated things tree. You and Justa both tried to represent the view that I still hold. That any woman in pain, any woman who has reached out for help is worthy of the support of fellow women.
When I had my miscarriage in September, I felt a new wave of outrage. That here now, was a world of open sympathy, that society would ooh and aah and reach out to me. That even if i had terminated for social reasons, I would receive more empathy than I did for this.
This is what i am trying to sustain here.
That there are no winners.
That we are not monsters who have blindly chosen to eradicate disability.
That modern science has created a situation where we responsibly face choices and that is a very hard condition for modern woman to face. That we try and do so with dignity and love and respect for others who have chosen differently.
I fight for equal opportunites for children with learning difficulties in my professional life, I champion their rights. I do a good job of it. It breaks my heart that i made the decision I did. There are moments when I doubt myself, when I imagine the alternative life i could now be living and i am not horrified by it. Of course I am not.
We are allowed to choose the life we lead.
We do not need to be metaphorically stoned for it.
This applies to all women who face hard choices.
I have learnt much from reading the other thread. There were some very articulate, intelligent women who wrote there, who were not flaming me personally, but were wondering whether there was a better place to put us. Fair enough. There were also some more malicious characters. Not so fair enough, but such is life. They know who they are and in the end, you get out of life what you put in.

And from all of this upset has come this thread.
Thank goodness for it.
Really.

Here here, Numpty x

It's taken me quite some time to get through all the posts this afternoon, some of which have moved me to tears, and all I can say (as a relatively newbie to the thread) is that I count my blessings every day that I found you here. I genuinely had no idea of the consternation that this thread first caused, and it saddens me that there are still people who think it inappropriate. Or who think that the decision we have taken means we are not entitled to support.

The comments about being judged have certainly got me thinking. Only two months have passed since my termination, and since then, I'd like to think that nobody in 'real life' has judged me or DH for taking the decision we did - but I'm also not naive enough to think that others wouldn't.

I remember the foggy 48 hours after being informed of Gracie's prognosis when I was frantically googling every website about Turner's under the sun, and I came across countless sites in which a few pro-lifers were quite rabidly arguing that Turner's is not a reason for termination and that women with Turner's go on to live healthy lives. Which, of course, they do. But as Numpty says, every case is different. And for me and DH, the decision we ultimately took was the right one for us, and no amount of judging or guilt-tripping would ever make me think otherwise.

I know I'm rambling a bit, but it's just a very roundabout (and waffly) way or saying that I've found nothing but compassion and understanding here. And that I would quite happily put my head above any parapet you asked me to, if it meant defending you, and the choices we've made.