support thread for women who have chosen to terminate IV

[bezzyk]

Hello ladies old and new.

Here's hoping this thread brings better luck and much happiness.

Lots of love

BK xx

Awww NumptyMum, that's fantastic news and am glad to hear you're well, Shangrila, too.

A small piece of good news from me too - the hospital has just called to say that mine and DH's blood tests have both come back as normal, which is a massive massive relief. Of course, it also means that losing our two babies was just extraordinarily bad luck, which I think will always be hard to get my head round, but still, it means we can try again and hopefully catch a break next time.

Good news Viv! Every little helps (as a well known catchphrase would have it).

Justa - thanks. It's still too early to feel any movement but I remember how reassuring it was with DS... Hope you are settling in OK with your wee boy, and that your DH has recovered from his hospital trip (or in fact that you're ALL recovering from your hospital trips).

Gosh some lovely news here this eve. Makes good reading. I'm so pleased for you both Numpty and Viv.

Hugs to Bee.

massive waves to Justa

Hi Ladies ? been off to the seaside for a few days celebrating my 30th so not been on for a while? very bizarre watching everyone else get trollied on such big one but I wouldn?t have it any other way!

Lots to catch up on, Congrats on the scan Numpty what super news! and Congrats Viv on the bloods that must be very reassuring too

Bee, Hugs, I?m not sure I can offer any advice to what the others have already said. Going through one termination was so tough on me I can hardly imagine the strength needed to go through it again, and again as some of you brave ladies have. I echo Mishta?s thoughts though about perhaps taking some time and not forcing yourself to make a decision right now. We will all be here for you in the meantime of course.

I?ve been interested reading all the conversations re. CVS testing. I had my midwife booking in appointment the other day and she informed me that my hospital did CVS testing from 8 weeks and if I wanted I could book one in now. It freaked me out a bit as I had never even considered having a CVS without the NT screening first. From what I had been told and read up about my particular diagnosis (Turners Syndrome) it is not hereditary and ?unlikely? to happen again. In which case I was thinking along your lines Cantdo ? if I was low risk then there would be no need for a CVS. Hmm

Kittens ? Hope you are feeling ok, sorry to hear you have to wait till the 12 week mark for your tests. I tend to agree with the others though that it may well be worth trying to speak to the consultant direct, I know at my hospital they book everyone in at 12 weeks just to ensure they are far along enough to do the test. I phoned up and got mine earlier by just saying I was on holiday the week after and they were fine with that. So sorry to hear about your mum too ? really hoping she gets the all clear.

Shangrila good to hear from you keep us update with news of the impending arrival ? very exciting!! xxx

Numpty, great to hear your scan went well. You must be so relieved. I hope you can start to feel a little bit excited now.

Viv, pleased to hear your news too. I remember being in your shoes. It's a good position to be in to now be able to make an informed decision whether you can try again. There's nothing worse than being in limbo. After our appointment with the genetics counsellor I felt much more at peace. Although I agree, when you find out that it's nothing more than bad luck you do tend to think "Oh, well, thanks! Why do I have to have such bad luck twice?"

Katie, it looks like we're in some sort of parallel universe. I will also be watching my friends get drunk on Saturday for my 40th. How was it? Did everyone keep trying to get you drunk? How did you disguise it? My other half found out the cause of his toothache, which was a small pumpkin seed wedged right up in his gum (ouch) and so decided not to bother with taking the Metronidazole so I was toying with the idea of putting his unfinished blister pack in my handbag as a "prop". I've had a bit of a bladder infection this week so I can pretend to be on antibiotics.

Do you have any symptoms yet Katie? Mine are still pretty scarce. I know I should be grateful after having rotten ms the last two times but I can't help feeling anxious! The other wierd think is that I don't have that protective instinct I had in previous pregnancies either. In my last pregnancies if anyone bumped into me it would make me really defensive. Not feeling massively broody either right now but I suspose that's a defense mechanism.

Funny isn?t it Kittens! This week I just had a family birthday and everyone knew so I didn?t have to pretend to drink but I have more drinks with all my friends also this Saturday night!! My boyfriend and Sister will be there so my plan is this ? when people ask me for a drink I will get a vodka cranberry or such like and Sister/BF will order plain cranberry juices which we will then discreetly swap them over. So they get pissed for free and everybody is happy That?s the plan anyway?! I had thought about the Anti B?s also but I don?t think my friends would buy it!

My symptoms have been much less this time round for me too and I was so worried when I had my first scan but everything looked fine. They were pretty much none existent until 7 weeks when I started feeling a bit sick, even now at 8+3 it?s not that bad and although my boobs have got bigger I don?t have any soreness. I think I mentioned a while back in a post though that for certain chromosomal abnormalities (T21 and Turners with hydrops) HCG levels are often significantly increased which would help explain why the morning sickness was worse ? also may mean that it?s a very good thing we are not feeling so bad this time around!

Good news from everyone, that's great.

About Turners - since it affects Viv and Katie, and did me - I gather it isnt thought to be hereditary and is less likely to recur than other chromosomal abnormalities. But my consultant last time around said it did mean being slightly higher risk than normal for having another pregnancy with chromosomal problems as it is caused by your ovaries effectively doing the splitting process wrongly. Katie I would agree with doing the NT/Combined test first and then deciding about CVS. Turners showed so obviously in my nuchal...

Am reading Jodi Picoult's latest paperback about a mother who sues her obstetrician for not noticing fetal abnormalities on an 18 week scan that would have enabled her to terminate, or at least choose not to. The child is born severely disabled and with a very restricted life but is happy. It's a bit close to the bone. I read a lot - and lots of books deal with infertility or termination when the woman's situation isnt right, but I havent read any fiction, I think, which deals with termination for abnormalities. It seems to be such a taboo topic. Someone at DH's work terminated at 20 weeks as baby's brain was found to be not developing. And everyone talked about it as an abortion. I dont know. It's like a whole twilight world that the medical professionals and us lot have entered, and everything about having babies changed for us as a result.

Good luck to all you pregnant people.... those nearing baby delivery (loads of you!) and those coming up to scans. And a special hug for those waiting to conceive or deciding. I am thinking of you.

I know what you mean Katie, I'm in two minds about the antibiotics. Even though I actually have pretend 'proof'. I'm thinking the decoy method may be easier in the end. Although, as my best friend pointed out, when you are drinking alcohol with mixers you can drink a lot more over a course of time than you can just drinking soft drinks. The venue I've hired has said we can go in and decorate as we please beforehand if we want which we probably won't because it's a really nice pub but I did consider some strategically placed plant pots for pouring drinks into.

Gosh, that Jodi Picoult book must be a hard read! Like you say though, it's good that she feels it's a subject to be written about. It makes me so cross that people see termination of pregnancy in such a black and white, blinkered way. I would never refer to my terminations as abortions for that very reason and I guess that was also why having to go to the Marie Stopes clinic was such a hideous experience.

That's interesting Can't as when I went for genetics counselling they said something quite the opposite ? that as it?s a case of a missing chromosome, that in the majority of cases (I think 80%) is due to a bad sperm it should not put you any more at risk as it?s not down to a mistake in the cells dividing. Apparently (although you probably know) its surprisingly common occurring in up to 3% of all conceptions and is one of the most common causes of miscarriage, it?s just that as 99% miscarry early on most people never know. It?s always comforting to get such conflicting information isn?t it! I guess it?s still such a misunderstood subject.

I will look up that Jodi Picoult book as it sounds an interesting read, I have read quite a few of her others and enjoyed them.

Kittens loving the plant pot idea LOL

Katie, my consultant said exactly what you have said (ie that it is random). He just also said that it did put one/us at slightly higher risk statistically of another issue.

Thing is it's all academic, isn't it. I mean: it didnt put me at higher risk of what DID happen to me last time, ie the developmental problem. Which is rarer than Turners anyway... and if you take odds of Turners then no kidneys, they are ridiculously low... but they still happened to me.
They did say when they were calculating the risk after the nuchal/bloods that Turners didnt get factored in the same way that Downs, Edwards and Patau would (because, as you say, theoretically there's no raised risk).

In all though - for all of us who've been through the horror once, twice, three times, whatever - the chance of a healthy baby is still much, much higher than that of a serious problem. It's just hard to fathom.

The Picoult novel is really compelling, just not sure appropriate to me at this stage. I have been checking my scan reports to ensure I can't see signs of what the baby had in the book, that wasnt picked up....

Aha i see - It's quite hard to get your head around the risks and what they mean but the key thing is, as you say, the chances of a healthy baby are far higher. That's what i'm trying to focus on anyway

Hello all - a lot of lovely news going on here, which makes such a good change.

Numpty that sounds like one brilliant scan. I am delighted for you, truly I am. So nice to get so many boxes checked off way in advance of the 20 weeker. Speaking as one who has never really been successful with the positive thinking this time round, I do think that if you can create a positive mood, it will make this so much more of a bearable/enjoyable experience for you. And it sounds from what you're saying that you're doing well on that front too. Excellent - and long may it continue. By the way, I've had the swine flu jab too and no regrets here.

Viv, some super news from you too. It's such a relief to find out that your own bloods are 'normal' isn't it? Doesn't change the past, I know, but gives a massive dose of hope for the future. Confidence too, which is mightily important for your own wellbeing.

Regarding Can't, kittens and katie (oh Katie, I'd been in Internet free exile for so long, I hadn't clocked your special news too - congrats!) and your testing discussion, I dug out the literature that I had from both my obs and one of the many geneticists we've seen, this time after a Turners MMC. What I've got on the report is that Turners is more seen as male factor and therefore more likely to be a one-off, sporadic event. Not an ageing issue, either and the nuchal scan is seen as an excellent predictor in 1st trimester.

Regarding CVS, I've had 3 - quite the veteran. They discourage them too early on the NHS and indeed won't contemplate anything here locally before 11 weeks as there have been studies which show a link to limb defects before 10 weeks. My obs does them very confidently from 10+4 (I think) and I felt very, very safe in his hands. In my pre-CVS scan he was quite confident that the nuchal width did not give an extra risk factor for Turners, and if we hadn't had other considerations, we would probably have left it there too. CVS is a great diagnostic tool, but not always necessary.

Oh and kittens - I checked with DH, the B12 supplementation was nothing to do with the chromosomal issue. Excess folate can sometimes mask a deficiency of B12 (again, I think) and so for general wellbeing and health, I took an extra dose of B12. Troubleshooting for my own health, rather than possible conception issues, so sorry if I rattled you unnecessarily there.

Can't - you are braver than brave to read Jodi Picoult. I have only managed one of hers (My sister's keeper?) and I think her subject matter has the potential to send me into a gibbering heap of slushy snot and tears. Very close to home this one, by the sound of it, too. Might be good for me to read if you recommend, but maybe I'll save it for after the event. Once a wuss...

Ho hum, schools closed AGAIN tomorrow. That lie-in is never going to happen, is it?

Love to all xxxx

What a wealth of information, thanks Shangrila! It?s a shame we have all had to become so knowledgeable on such subjects really isn?t it?

Sounds like my midwife was barmy for saying I could get a CVS done from 8 weeks, she was a stand in and quite young so maybe she just got it wrong.

This thread is an amazing place. There is so much knowledge here, of optionsand how to cope with them. If anyone is the academic type, then this would be an amazin place to start building somesort of piece on the experience of screening, diagnosis and results. I'm certain this thread could inform practice.

There is also a novel here. For certain.

Wonder what midwife meant Katie? Was she thinking dating scan?

Just a quickie to wish havingkittens a happy 40th, I remember you said a few days back that it was 3 days hence so hope I've got the day right.

Is everyone snowed in? Schools still shut here but main road OK so took kids to the cinema today. Have to say I will be glad when they get back, 3 weeks off school is too much!

Need to read through but am off to bed now. NIght all. xxx

One of you dear souls texted me tonight to see how spirits were- thank you dear, kind soul. I was on my way to hear a chanteuse in a theatre on Shaftesbury Avenue - a wonderful cabaret, vaguely burlesque French/Irish woman called Camille Sullivan. Most entertaining and distracting - she sang beautifully; ah the power of the human voice.
One song - the lyrics were
'Misery is the river of life,
Everybody row,
Everybody row'.
Glum sounding I realise but it resonated with me. Miserable not always no, but when it strikes we have to row, row, row. And rowing works best when in rhythm; rowing solo is no fun.
I also needed to share an observation about Jodie Picoult. Brave of her to write about termination? Controversial? Yes. But how much more affecting, opinion changing, challenging, poignant, if she had written about a woman who HAD had a termination. But of course she did not... for obvious reasons. The uproar in the States would be hideous am sure. This is how harshly we are judged.
It is growing inside my soul the book. I will do it. I may even have a mumsnetter co-author.
Happy Birthday to you Kittens - I hope it is a merry one - that you are treasured by your loved ones honey. You deserve it.
Love to all on this frostiest of nights.
Bee

Dear Bee.

Gawd that's it. I have no real usefull words but Dear Bee. I'll row with you, and shout you a taxi if it helps at all.

I don't judge you and worked with fine professionals who don't either. Really truly never ever did.

As to people who would judge you rather than themselves, which is what we all should be doing a lot more of, well as my nan would say 'It would be a misfortune to be liked by them'

Hardly a positive note, but certainly a resilient one.

Read a chapter of Wind in the Willows to dd1 this morning. The story where Mole meets the river and learns to row.

'With his ear to the reed stems he caught, at intervals, something of what the wind went whispering so constantly among them'

I cried. DD1 just looked at me and went to get a Mr Men book.

Thank you for my birthday wishes. It's actually tomorrow so I'm still eeeking out my 30s for the day! OH is taking me out to a fish restaurant tonight (may have to ask them to blank out the shellfish options on my menu though so I don't get frustrated!) and then my party tomorrow. Sould be a nice weekend.

Bee, I've seen Camille 3 times now. She's great isn't she? Funnily enough, I liked that Misery's the River of Life song so much I actually emailed her on myspace to ask her what the song was. Turned out I wasn't so keen on the original version by Tom Waits but then I've never been much of a fan of his. Her version is fab though.

Happy Birthday for tomorrow Kittens! I look forward to swapping stories on alcohol avoidance come Monday.

I shall have to look up Camille Sullivan Bee, sounds very intriguing and I work just a stone?s throw from Shaftesbury avenue too.

Tree, Midwife defiantly said I could book in for a CVS now. I said no anyway as I don?t see the point in the risk if the scans are fine. I suppose midwife?s don?t get that involved early on so perhaps she just had her wires crossed ? everything else I have read here or elsewhere suggests it should not be done till 10/11 weeks at the earliest.

Oops kittens! Enjoy being 39 for today then! My 30s seem so far away.... but I did have a 17 day old baby on my 40th so can't complain.

Just caught up with some of the excellent news above, Numpty and Viv and Shangrila (welcome back) I hope the weather improves for the January babies!

tree - that reminds me of our holiday in Spain, I was sitting in the sun with ds2 reading and it was quite a windy day. I laid my book down for a moment and the wind caught the pages ruffling them. ds2 says "look the wind is reading the book". I thought it was very poetic.

Off to catch a bus again, school still closed

Katie
She is only playing at that venue until the 16th Jan - but she is well worth catching.
Kittens - you and i should really meet up for chatty time - seems we have similar burlesque tastes and you just down the roadio.
Are you going to Fish place in St John Street or Sheekey's I wonder!????
Tree tops - am glad to hear that you are reading such sophisticated material to your gal - tis so important to development to be read to . Having said that I am also very partial to Mr Tickle. Think he is my favourite.
xx
ps - hug to you Tree for being Treeish

I like Mr Rude.

There is not a Mister Rude surely?
My,my how times they are a-changing?
Hang on a min , does not a certain Mr Bennett have a illustrious theatre near you treetops?