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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think Auriol Grey being jailed is not appropriate.

1000 replies

Finnyfanjango · 03/03/2023 11:47

I’m interested to hear the thoughts and reactions of others as to me given her cognitive issues and the fact she is partially blind, it just seems like such a sad accident, I can’t see why she was jailed.
I think what she did was awful, but it surely just highlights the lack of appropriate social care she clearly needed?

OP posts:
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13
oakleaffy · 03/03/2023 16:22

BadNomad · 03/03/2023 16:07

Grey thought she was in the right and so decided to take action against the person who she believed was in the wrong. This action resulted in a death. That is what manslaughter is. It doesn't matter if the cyclist should have been on the footpath or the road. Grey did not act in self-defence, she acted out of anger and entitlement.

Absolutely this.
The seventy yr old cyclist looked physically lightweight- Being shoved on her shoulder by an anger fuelled stronger looking person is not on.
Inexcusable.
Especially not stopping or showing any remorse.

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 16:26

It could mean "my arm was extended and she clipped it with her handlebars". We don't know.

Her handlebars were already past her, and didn't make contact. You can see that from their positioning and the fact there's no wobble or turning movement from the bike until the back wheel is in pretty much line with the pedestrian.

No one is saying she threw her full body weight into her, just just she gave her a push which was, however light, enough to cause the cyclist to lose control.

BadNomad · 03/03/2023 16:26

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 16:21

She said their may have been some light contact. That's not the same as "I gave her a walking great shove" or even "I touched her". It could mean "my arm was extended and she clipped it with her handlebars". We don't know.

But it is that contact that caused the cyclist to roll off the path into traffic. So it doesn't matter if it was a gentle clip or a great shove. She made contact. That contact caused the death of another human being.

oakleaffy · 03/03/2023 16:29

BishopRock · 03/03/2023 16:08

Their fevered imaginations.

Yes, the cyclist is hardly Tour de France material.
I feel very sad that she was killed and a driver traumatised because of angry actions by an unapologetic and careless pedestrian.

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 16:32

BadNomad · 03/03/2023 16:26

But it is that contact that caused the cyclist to roll off the path into traffic. So it doesn't matter if it was a gentle clip or a great shove. She made contact. That contact caused the death of another human being.

Well no, because that's not what the court found.

And I was addressing the comment "I don't get why people keep saying she didn't touch her when she even admitted she did." Because I've not noticed anybody saying she didn't touch the cyclist, just that she wasn't pushed.

But none of us know because none of us have seen all the evidence.

oakleaffy · 03/03/2023 16:34

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 14:56

Well I don't know what video you're watching but the fact it's narrow is the first thing that's apparent. It's very narrow.

It's 2.4m. It isn't 'very narrow'.

Plus the pedestrian was hogging the middle of the shared pavement ( Cycle lane too)

Swiftswatch · 03/03/2023 16:36

Imo there would never be this many posts proclaiming the person didn’t deserve prison time if it was a man who had ‘made contact’ pushed into an elderly woman on a bike.

It shows that people are determined to always paint women as victims even when they do terrible things.

Also ‘partially blind’? She wore glasses! Half the country probably does. Her eyesight clearly wasn’t a factor and yet people have to add these pity-enduring irrelevant details.

BadNomad · 03/03/2023 16:37

BrigitteBond · 03/03/2023 16:32

Well no, because that's not what the court found.

And I was addressing the comment "I don't get why people keep saying she didn't touch her when she even admitted she did." Because I've not noticed anybody saying she didn't touch the cyclist, just that she wasn't pushed.

But none of us know because none of us have seen all the evidence.

You should look again. There are people saying there was no contact made. That she was just waving her arms around.

FloydPepper · 03/03/2023 16:38

DonnaBanana · 03/03/2023 15:56

I think her being in prison is like if someone threw a bottle at you, you batted it away, the bottle smashed and so you got done for criminal damage. It's not on.

And the prize for the person who understands the law the least goes to…

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:38

Her actions directly resulted in the death of another person. That's grounds for manslaughter. The fact that some people can relate and empathise with her means piss all.

Actions resulting in the death of another person are not automatic grounds for manslaughter.

Look up "mens rea".

Bournetilly · 03/03/2023 16:38

The cyclist wouldn’t of died if she didn’t act the way she did. She deserves to be in jail.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/03/2023 16:39

Whiteminnowfish · 03/03/2023 12:01

Is this the lady who pushed the cyclist onto the road and cyclist died?

No physical contact was made.

OneTC · 03/03/2023 16:39

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 16:26

It could mean "my arm was extended and she clipped it with her handlebars". We don't know.

Her handlebars were already past her, and didn't make contact. You can see that from their positioning and the fact there's no wobble or turning movement from the bike until the back wheel is in pretty much line with the pedestrian.

No one is saying she threw her full body weight into her, just just she gave her a push which was, however light, enough to cause the cyclist to lose control.

And from the fact the wheel falls to the right but would have been pulled to the left had her handlebars clipped anything

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:39

Naunet · 03/03/2023 15:37

It seems so out of sync with other cases. My friends brother was killed by a drunk driver and the guy didn’t even go to prison, let alone face a manslaughter charge, and he was far more culpable. Then there’s men who have strangled women to death but got off because he had his dick inside her at the time. I don’t get it.

Because women are treated far more harshly by the justice system for the same offence.

OneTC · 03/03/2023 16:39

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/03/2023 16:39

No physical contact was made.

You're contradicting AG

BadNomad · 03/03/2023 16:40

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/03/2023 16:39

No physical contact was made.

@BrigitteBond See. Here's another one.

Swiftswatch · 03/03/2023 16:40

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 03/03/2023 16:39

No physical contact was made.

Well considering the woman prosecuted seems to accept that there may be physical contact or not why do you think you’re better placed to claim there wasn’t?

OneTC · 03/03/2023 16:41

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:39

Because women are treated far more harshly by the justice system for the same offence.

That would explain the prison population 😅

Swiftswatch · 03/03/2023 16:41

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:39

Because women are treated far more harshly by the justice system for the same offence.

Quite literally the opposite of what many, many items of research have found.

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:44

Clymene · 03/03/2023 15:18

It really is amazing the number of internet warriors who despite being not in full possession of all the facts have decided the jury and the judge were completely wrong.

I can only hope you're never asked to do jury service

The problem is, they quite often are. It's not unreasonable to ask/try to find out whether a decision is good law- outside of morality and sentiment.

BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs · 03/03/2023 16:48

And from the fact the wheel falls to the right but would have been pulled to the left had her handlebars clipped anything

Absolutely

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:50

Swiftswatch · 03/03/2023 16:41

Quite literally the opposite of what many, many items of research have found.

I suggest you read the work of Helena Kennedy on the matter.

Catspyjamas17 · 03/03/2023 16:51

OneTC · 03/03/2023 16:41

That would explain the prison population 😅

Men commit vastly more crime. Unless women are much better at getting away with it undetected.

JarByTheDoor · 03/03/2023 16:58

If you're going to operate a vehicle in public you have certain responsibilities in how you use it, and that includes bicycles.

Cyclists mustn't ride on pavements by law, unless they're explicitly designated as permissible to ride on. Since nobody seems to know whether this pavement was or wasn't considered to be shared use, it's obviously not explicitly designated as such, so cyclists really should assume it's not permitted or safe to ride there. It would be reasonable for a pedestrian to assume that a cyclist riding on that pavement is the type of person to break the law and disregard the safety of more vulnerable road users, and understandable for them to be fearful and/or angry about that apparently selfish and reckless behaviour. Shouting, swearing and gesticulating isn't nice behaviour and can be criminal, but breaking the law in a way that puts more vulnerable people at risk and causes them fear isn't particularly nice either.

Whether shared use or not, cyclists shouldn't be traveling at reckless or dangerous speeds. Pavements are full of vulnerable people who may suddenly appear from nowhere or move unpredictably at a wide range of different speeds, who might not be able to see you or hear you, predict your trajectory, quickly change course or step out of the way, and who may be disproportionately affected by any physical impact. You should never expect pedestrians to be able to move for you and should always be travelling at a speed which allows you to stop or safely adjust your course in plenty of time. If the cyclist wasn't able to stop or to change to a safe course before reaching the pedestrian, she was travelling too fast.

If you're going to operate a vehicle you should be able to maintain control of the vehicle even in the face of unpleasant distractions like someone shouting, swearing and gesturing at you. You should also have situational awareness, so that you know what's on the road to the right of you, and what's in front of and (ideally) behind you. The pedestrian was walking centrally on the pavement as she had been all along (and had every right to be). If there was no room to go past on the left, and busy traffic to the right, the cyclist should've been aware enough of that traffic not to swerve dangerously into it.

It doesn't seem to be clear whether the "contact" was the light brush of a finger of a gesturing hand, or a hefty shove, or something in between, but as it's not been taken into account in the verdict, I'll leave it at saying that obviously a push would make this a very different situation. Without a push, my opinion based only on what I've seen and read is that the cyclist died through her own carelessness. She was riding somewhere she wasn't explicitly permitted to take that kind of vehicle, travelling too fast to safely respond to the situation, lacked situational awareness and didn't maintain control of her vehicle. The pedestrian probably did commit a public order offence in her angry response to what appeared to be a lawbreaker putting her at risk, but lobbing yourself into traffic because of that is hardly a proportional, predictable or understandable response.

WeaselCheeks · 03/03/2023 17:00

"This woman has got more of a sentence than some drivers have got who've killed children. This was one shocking."

I think that's more of an issue with lenient sentences being given to drivers, than an overly harsh sentence given here. There is a difference though, because of the intent and following actions:

  • The driver (Dean Phoenix) in the case you linked to didn't end up killing the wee lad out of malice - he didn't see him, because he was stupid and careless, and not paying enough attention to the fact he was stopped right before a pedestrian crossing. It's terrible, and unforgivable, but the action wasn't done to cause harm. He didn't flee the scene. He pleaded guilty.
  • Aoriol Grey verbally abused Celia Ward, before gesturing aggressively, with the result of pushing Mrs Ward into the road, into moving traffic (by Grey's own admission, she made contact). She then left the scene and went shopping. That indicates aggression, malice, and an utter lack of remorse. According to the judge, she has no cognitive impairments that could explain her behaviour. She's just an arsehole.

Aoriol's Grey's actions were deliberately aggressive, and resulted in someone's death. She didn't take responsibility. She didn't show remorse. That's why she got a longer sentence.

I find it quite staggering that anyone is defending her, tbh. She literally showed less decency than a convicted murderer.

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