Children in business class......what the heck is wrong with it?

[Indaba]

Forgive the rant but I am so, so, so, so annoyed........I have been following a thread elsewhere asking about long haul holiday recommendations.

The poster was intending to fly business class and I have been astounded at the number of mumsnetters who have argued

1. children shouldn't be in business class at all just in case they annoy someone who needs to work.

2. business people have paid so much for their tickets they deserve to be completely undisturbed.

Please can you tell me when it was decided
business people rights are more important than anyone else in the universe and they should be able to dictate who can buy a transport ticket on a public airline?

I thought we were all created equally. Or have things changed and some people out rank others according to earning power or their jobs?

I've taken my children business class on a few occasions, twice BA business class to Florida and 2 or 3 times to Middle East. They have behaved very well (DD was a baby and then a toddler when last flew). The people making a nuisance of themselves on the flights were invariably the business men who were over indulging in the free booze after several months in a dry country!

There was a child on UC when I flew back from Joburg on Wednesday, didn't hear a word from him, the snoring man however should be banned from all forms of public transportation.

If you know you're children are well behaved and you can take them anywhere without them running around squealing then you should be free to take them anywhere regardless of where that is.
However, if you kids are unruly, misbehaving little toerags then please don't force them onto me or into my space anywhere.
I have 3 dc's and I've always been able to take them anywhere.
We've flown long haul in both economy and business class and had only good comments from other passengers at the end of the flights.
I've taken them to some upmarket restaurants all over the place and again, only had excellent comments about their behaviour.
They will happily sit through a theatre production or a kids movie.
If I thought they wouldn't then I wouldn't take them.
My kids are well behaved and they have respect and consideration for other people because I have taught them that. And I expect that same thing from other people's children.
If you can't teach your children that same thing then don't force them on the rest of us who have the good sense and parenting skills to teach our kids manners and good behaviour.

I have to say that my kids are seriously under the BoffinMum thumb on aeroplanes, not least because I refuse to pander to noisy, screaming children who want to run up and down the aisle. However I was treated abysmally in economy by Lufthansa last summer. All families were corralled at the back of a 3/4 empty plane, right by the toilets, and the air hostess was truly nasty to us all. I was very disappointed with Lufthansa and have switched my allegiance to BA for a bit (as has DS1 actually, but he likes their unaccompanied minors' lounge at Heathrow, so that might be more of a factor).

Hahahahahahaha!

We did nearly have a punch up on a plane from Turkey once, though. DS2 was really young and the distance between his bottom and feet was exactly equal to the distance from the back of his seat to the back of the seat in front. This meant he could not hang his legs down and every time he moved the slightest bit, he had to touch the other seat a little with his toes. Sitting for 4 hours in the same position with legs crossed wasn't realistic.

There were three pissed babyboomer people sitting in the row in front, one of whom had obviously read the Princess and the Pea. They had been on a drinking holiday in a gang of about 12, with matching drinking holiday themed t-shirts (we know because we have seen them around the place and also doing the same in Greece the year before). The husband of the woman in front of DS2 really laid into us and went on and on about how awful we were as parents, how they had had three children and had always had them under control, why could people not supervise their children these days, etc etc. We offered to swap seats - they refused. We explained how difficult it was given the seat pitch and the length of DS2's legs, they argued more violently. In the end the husband jumped up and started trying to have a go at me. DH thought he was going to have to hit him to keep him off me physically. It was really nasty.

We were rescued by a tennis coach we had been having lessons with, who offered us his seats near the front, so everyone was able to swap around. However I was disgusted that the air stewards did nothing while all this was building up, despite us asking for help resolving it. And they continued to pour booze down these people's throats, which fuelled the flames.

That's Thomas Cook off my list of airlines I use as well - in fact I won't even go on a Neilson's holiday again because of that experience (they share the flights and put us on that plane in the first place, with these mad drunk people).

Boffin

I am flying Business tomorrow Singapore to London with my teenage DDs.

They were fine inter-continental from a young age as they were used to it and I was always a disciplinarian prepared with distractions. Now it is easy peasy. The DDs are very glamorous and cosmopolitan- as are their friends; I can't see any business men complaining .

(I am laughing hysterically at the smug smugger of jooles115 BTW, not Boffin)

Soup, she has a point. Mine have been to posh restaurants, travelled a fair bit, gone to the theatre and so on, and they get the point of behaving well. I do not always have to make them behave, or tell them off (although I am happy to step in if necessary). In turn my kids are slightly bemused when other kick off in public.

If English children went out with their parents more in grown up environments, they would also get the message. Instead we feed them with burgers and take them to ball pits for their entertainment. What do people expect, if that's the only experience of being outside the home that children generally have?

We used to put the 3 much older childern in the row in front of teh twins so the twins would be pushing the backs for the passengers in front of their own siblings not someone else. It's a very difficult issue. Most small children have to have their feet there and pushing in - there's no other way but it's not soft pushing. it's constant and not nice for the person in front but impossible to prevent a normal child doing it, hence my solution but only possible inbig families and when you've any choice of seats.

Wouldn't it be great to have an on board creche and soft play that would keep the kids amused for the length of the flight?

People say some of the most stupid things.

have had business men insist on moving when I sit down, I assure them sleep is imminent but they move. Have also had some of them move back because the adults where they moved to were too noisy and DCs were fast asleep.

Have had old people moan that they are on their retirement trip of a lifetime and do not want to sit near "screaming brats". As a medic, I have then ended up sorting them out with their heart attacks, indigestion etc all whilst DC have slept through Mummy working and barely haeving her backside touch the very expensive seat she ahs paid for.

Cabin crew are usually OK, but sometimes BA cabin crew could do with learning some manners. Got accused of leaving a nappy in the toilet - DC stood up and proudly said, 2.5 yr old speak - "not me, me no wear nappies", dropped his trousers and wiggled his bum at her!

Half of the business class section fell about and it broke the ice, everyone talked to him as they went past and he loved it.

I was highly embarrassed by being accused so loudly and by his response!

Euro, your DS sounds absolutely lovely.

If children are allowed in "business class" then it should not be called "business class" because the name implies a quiet area where people who need to work will be.

I have realised from this thread that people who don't have children don't know how to switch off from other people's children.

It is the only society like this where people, apparently intelligent 'business class' people, want to introduce segregation based on age! So the CEO and her family have to now travel economy class since having children and therfore turning into lower life forms who might 'disturb' the business class.

Is this ageism....?

It's great for kids to experience different situations with differing rules for behaviour from being loony in the playground to being quiet in a crowded plane!

Not sure I'd fancy the pressure of keeping a young baby pacified in business class, but I have flown economy with plenty of feeds & cuddles & distraction techniques, and we didn't get any complaints!!

However, why shouldn't we expect our toddlers and older children to play quietly, talk softly, read, sleep or simply daydream during a long journey, wherever they are. These are brilliant skills that are needed often throughout life, so the earlier children develop their own coping strategies the better.

I think we need to revise what is considered to be unacceptable behaviour.

CapitalText it generally isn't called 'business class'.

I'm slightly concerned about the argument that if your child is polite and well-behaved they should be allowed in business class, but if they are naughty screamers, they should be put in economy with the masses. Surely if you know your child is going to constantly misbehave and bother other travellers, you shouldn't be going on a flight in the first place - or at least not a long haul one.

Of course, babies will cry and toddlers will fuss - its the way things are - but I'm talking about serious misbehaviour for the duration of the flight.

My DD has been travelling on long haul flights (both economy and business) since 4mo and at 2.3yo now understands acceptable behaviour on a plane. I've got no qualms about taking her business class - I think people's perceptions of sitting near a child are much worse than reality most of the time anyway....

Of course children should be encouraged/expected to behave well in public especially in a confined space with lots of strangers who don't think they are the best thing since sliced bread. But if you've paid for the seats, you have as much right to be there as anyone else.

I used to have free first class train travel thanks to my Dad's job. Used to really amuse me when the fat middle aged businessmen would scowl at this teenager in ripped jeans and Converse, thinking the guard would chuck me out. I used to enjoy the guard coming round as he'd chat to me about my Dad (they all recognised his name) and then go and chuck out some fat middle aged businessman who was sitting in the 'wrong' part of first class (the bit for full price tickets not the 'pay extra for an upgrade' part).

SomeGuy, what would you say is it usually called? Most people above are calling it business class.

"CapitalText it generally isn't called 'business class'."

Something other than business class... BA call it Club World, Virgin Upper Class, Thai Royal Silk. Some other airlines do call it Business Class, but it's by no means as standard as 'First Class' - the point presumably being to emphasis to potential customers that it is NOT only for business, it is for anyone who wants a nice seat/bed and better service.

I always fly "Business Class" (agree not always called this now) except when we fly Premium Economy on BA.

If it is a double decker (like recent flights on Emirates, Air Canada and Singapore Airlines) then I've usually opted for the upstairs (ie adult only) section.

However I'm perfectly happy for families to be in the same section otherwise. After all it is only down to what you are prepared to pay - nobody has a god given right to quiet flight.

Singapore don't have "First Class" anymore on A380s - they have "Suites" - which really are luxurious. Maybe "business people" (hate that phrase) should persuade their employers to send them that way if they want to be child free.

I agree with the sentiment though that children should be well behaved on all public transport (our DD is) and letting them experience more grown up places (particularly restaurants) in normal life is a good idea.

you can book into suites with kids. Interestingly SQ don't discount R/F/J, only Y class.

Air Canada don't have any double deckers, and on SQ and EK all the business class seats are upstairs - they aren't adult-only sections (the SQ A380 also has some Y seating upstairs, but kids aren't excluded from this either).

Someguy - I've definitely flown in the bubble on Air Canada (same configuration as per Cathay business ie herring bone style)but I'm not sure of the airplane.

I agree of course that when I flew on the SQ A380 in May it was all Business upstairs (as opposed to climbing the stairs on some flights).

However are they all only upstairs if flying Business on the non-A380s on SQ?

I've not used their Suites so far - seems tempting but as I enjoy the business class on A380 it's not worth the extra money to me.

I've flown Emirates Business class twice this year but can't remember how it worked. I thought it was upstairs on A380 but just towards the front on a very ordinary flight (3 across the middle!) the other time.