Children in business class......what the heck is wrong with it?

[Indaba]

Forgive the rant but I am so, so, so, so annoyed........I have been following a thread elsewhere asking about long haul holiday recommendations.

The poster was intending to fly business class and I have been astounded at the number of mumsnetters who have argued

1. children shouldn't be in business class at all just in case they annoy someone who needs to work.

2. business people have paid so much for their tickets they deserve to be completely undisturbed.

Please can you tell me when it was decided
business people rights are more important than anyone else in the universe and they should be able to dictate who can buy a transport ticket on a public airline?

I thought we were all created equally. Or have things changed and some people out rank others according to earning power or their jobs?

Anyone who can afford business class should be able to sit in business class.

And the 'business people' sitting in business class needing to 'work', are most probably playing solitaire or on facebook. It's transport, not a library.

We fly to Florida every year with our dc's who are now 5,3 & 9mths. We have, for the last 3 trips flown Virgin Upper Class and got a fairly mixed reaction.

One time an elderly couple swapped their seats for 2 empty ones near the curtain as they were pissed off that we had dared to bring 2 dc's into the cabin. As there were 2 empty seats we upgraded dh's brother & cousin to come and sit with us in upper. We had 6 our of the 14 seats and could still hear the couple ranting. We worked out that we had spent £10k on flights (far more than they had spent) and had every right, if not more to have the children there.

The stewardess said that we shouldnt worry as we were flying on a family friendly airline, to a family destination and that other passengers should expect to see more children on the flight.

Our children dont just sit and watch the tv or read books and YES they can cause a noise and probably do piss people off BUT what can you do about it? Not a lot really. You can feel everyones eyes burning into you if your child so much as lets out a squeak.

Everyone needs a holiday and those that are fortunate enough to be able to go abroad need to get there somehow and to be honest, flying is the most stressful part of the whole process. For us, flying UC is a complete luxury and helps to take some of the stress out of the journey. We try and book the front seats so that we can try and contain the kids as much as possible and make sure that we pack as many things in their hand luggage to keep them entertained for at least part of the journey.

If children werent allowed to fly in Business/Upper/First Class then the airlines woudnt sell the seats.

So, I think that you should fly in the class that you can afford to fly in and sod the people who glare at you. I always make a point of talking to the stewardess about it when i know the 'grumpies' are listening as i like them to hear what is said about it being a family friendly airline flying to a family destination

I can see both sides.... THere are people who do need to work on flights or rest so they can go into work fresh (been there, done that) but equally am a parent so if (and we haven't yet) we'd like to travel business class with the kids, why not??? Maybe the answer is to have quiet areas, like the quiet coaches on the trains???

Hello. OP here.

Haven't read anything that has changed my mind.

A few disordered thoughts here;

I'm not usually one to argue the benefits of the market but here I go......its all well and good for people to vote in a survey they want child free flights but unfortunately there is not enough demand.

As many of the MNers have pointed out on here already when you travel business class you realise how many business class travellers are people flying with kids.

1. If there really was enough demand out there the cash-strapped airlines would have done it. (Oh no, now we've started this thread maybe Ryan Air will start charging you a pound for use of the toilet and two pounds for each child in a nappy!)

2. I've already made the point earlier on this thread that on larger bodied planes the up stair section of business class is generally reserved for adults only.

3. My mate flew out with a bunch of drunk England football supporters from Heathrow to Cape Town the other week. One got so drunk he vomitted on the head of the woman in front of him (!).....pre-take off!! Caused plane to turn around and taxi back and both people had to disembark (the vomiter and the vomitee) So here is another category of people that shouldn't be allowed in business class eh?

4. And for some of the MNers who have been arguing they or their darling partners have so much precious work to do on a plane there is one survey I would love to refer you to.

Its based entirely on my personal experience, and thus not that scientific.....pre-children I used to work in Investment Banking (oh, the shame ). I was flying long haul a lot, every week, more times that on reflection seems feasibly possible (bad for the skin but great for the air miles ).

Anyway, in my experience the business class flyers who were in professional clothes were not pouring over their spreadsheets. In this small survey I can report I observed the other flyers typically did; wine, nonsense chat, if male a few good leers at the female flight attendants, some more wine and then if male a furtive porn mag or two, then some rubbish big thriller paperback and then a big snorey, farty sleep. Lovely.....not!

My dh uses flying as a good excuse for R&R because it's the one time he can't be harassed by his mobile phone! He's never complained about kids in business.

But it depends where you fly. There are a lot of destinations that have no discernible business presence so the whole of business class are likely to be tourists.

On the other hand, my dad used to fly to the middle east a lot and he often chose to fly economy because business was full of kids and their nannies whilst their parents flew first!

Comes down to behaviour of fellow passengers - and some 1 year olds are a lot better behaved than some 40 year olds!

if you p[ay the money you have every right. the sniffy people should bugger off

undercova, i had also mentioned the pain of smelly people and pissed youffs.

If people don't like particular groups of humanity sharing their transport, they should blardy well get their own jet.

It's PUBLIC transport. Members of the public are going to be on it with you. Get over it.

undercova, i had also mentioned the pain of smelly people and pissed youffs.

Frankly I get more pissed off in economy being disturbed by children kicking my seat and screaming in my ear in an enclosed space than in business class. If you have the money then why the hell not.

Also don't know if it has been pointed out or not but those business lot don't pay for themselves, they get paid for or upgraded because they are frequent travellers - the people I know that fly frequently in business etc are a certain type of person that isnt' disturbed by much, can sleep through a hurricane in the air and probably pops a pill. Those who are going to be pissed off are the ones that pay for themselves and want to enjoy the whole experience.

If I could I would go business all the time!

i have nothing against kids on any part of a plane as long as they are well behaved. Not saying i'd be overjoyed initially to be seated next to one tho.

I do have a bit of an objection to the way 'business' passengers are being portrayed in this thread. Speaking as someone who has travelled to the FE for business many times (i am not a 'middle manager' fyi) and am usually expected to go to meetings straight away which is actually a good idea if you're going to combat the dreaded lag. I am a very light sleeper and i suffer from bad jet lag on occasion, which can be VERY unpleasant. Sometimes I have been lucky enough to be sent business class, depending on budget and company policy (I certainly couldn't afford to send myself business!) Perhaps I am not the typical BC flyer you all seem to know.

I must admit I'd be more annoyed by a crying or badly behaved child in business class as the company having paid a premium for me to arrive in a fit state to work, would not get their moneys worth. The few comments saying the company should hire a private jet are utterly ridiculous and only show how far some peoples heads are in the clouds regarding the cost of a business class ticket vs a private jet. That said I would not automatically assume a child in BC is going to be a problem as have travelled near kids in both scenarios, the BC experience for a child does seem to be much more comfortable and easy.

at the end of the day if the airline doesnt have a policy against it and you have the money, then no one can stop you but you also cant stop other people from not liking it.

Dear Kerry..., being a business flyer, surely you'd have a pair of 'noise-out' headphones or earplugs. Common sense, no?
Kerrist, I can't begin to count the long-hauls I was ready to bite off some drunken, vile, noisy heads of ff businessmen.
No children could ever cause such ruckus.

am at the ignorance of those who don't understand that (most) companies paying business class do so because they expect you to walk off the plane and into a meeting - that's the whole justification for BC for many business travellers. And not all of those people are CEOs who can command the company jet That said, I DO agree, if you pay BC you should get it whether with kids or not, but airlines should appreciate travellers have different needs and try to accommodate both. as I said before, like the quiet coaches on trains.

When I hear other kids wailing, running about etc & they aren't mine & are not causing my kids any problems then it's music to my ears as it's nothing to do with me.

I could happily sleep in a plane with kid noise all about. I think any parent could.

Has anyone mentioned the fact that it seems a bit unreasonable of businesses and their employees to complain that they can not get any work done or sleep during a flight because of the noise children on the plane may make? A plane is a for of transport, PUBLIC transport, the public which includes children will be travelling on it. It is not an office or an hotel room. What seems unreasonable to me is that companies expect people to work or get enough sleep during a long flight so that they can go straight into the office when they land.

I have to say though I do have some sympathy for the retired couple I mentioned earlier.

I travel business class both for work and for pleasure. IME, there are very few flights that actually contain "business" class passengers (i.e. people on business), despite the name, as it really depends on the destination. So, I feel no guilt whatsoever in having my toddler in business class if we are going to a holiday destination, but its fair to say that i would feel more stressed at my child disturbing people if I was taking the red eye to/from New York, Boston or Singapore. For this reason I tend to take those flights (with toddler) when there are less likely to be grumpy "real" business passengers on board i.e. weekend flight. I have flown first class once (long haul) with DD and really didn't enjoy the experience. The frosty looks if DD so much as moved made me feel very uncomfortable. I wouldn't do it again despite everyone saying at the end how well behaved she was, it was just way too stressful worrying about everyone else.

We flew business class a couple of years ago with my dc's.

Positively relished getting a few "ssshhh!" directed at my then 2 yo, who wasn't being noisy - just trying to play peek-a-boo with the grumpy old bag that was sitting behind us. His disturbance of her was soon remedied when he got some cartoons to watch and he was an angel for the rest of the flight

The flight crew were brilliant with him - which made me less inclined to feel guilty at a bit of 'kid' noise on a relatively short flight. The way I see it, I paid for the seats so have every right to be there. Obviously I wouldn't be allowing the kids to be tearing up and down the aisle making a nuisance of themselves but give me a bit of childrens chatter over a grumpy overweight businessmans snoring any day of the week

As I said before, there are very few low paid jobs that require you to step off a plane in NY or the Middle East and go straight into a meeting. Therefore you are being paid top whack to make that sacrifice and it's frankly your problem. Unless your company can afford to buy its own planes you're stuck with the great unwashed. And if some of the great unwashed can afford business class then good on them. You are being paid to put up with it. And I have a brother who does this so am not completely talking out of my arse.

"When I hear other kids wailing, running about etc & they aren't mine & are not causing my kids any problems then it's music to my ears as it's nothing to do with me.

I could happily sleep in a plane with kid noise all about. I think any parent could. "

Lol, I agree with you there. In fact I feel an odd combination of empathy and exaltation

i suppose it depends what your definition of 'top wack' was but i certainly wasn't being paid enough to afford to send myself and my entire family on holiday BC, like it seems some of the other posters on here can. I had an averagely well paid professional job, but i worked for a large company that had a policy about sending people BC if the flight time was over 8 hrs. Many people who work in development or buying, don't get paid huge salaries but still have to fly out to the FE (we are talking 12+ hr flights) to see factories, or suppliers, work very long hours and then fly back. Its not about being a snob and not wanting to be 'stuck with the great unwashed' its about being able to perform to the best of your ability when you get there. seems like there is an awful lot of inverse snobbery going on here!

My dh often has to travel long haul for work, has to fly economy and still work 12 hours a day when he gets there. Some people are being a bit precious about their reasons for flying business class as there are companies around that won't fork out for it anyway. I think he'd appreciate an upgrade! And he's never disturbed by kids.

I think a lot more people actually pay for their tickets in cattle class..... most people in business class do not pay for their ticket - their companies do. If you never put children in a position to learn how to behave in certain circumstances then how can you blame them when they dont know how to behave.
Its not the children that are the problem ..........