Children in business class......what the heck is wrong with it?

[Indaba]

Forgive the rant but I am so, so, so, so annoyed........I have been following a thread elsewhere asking about long haul holiday recommendations.

The poster was intending to fly business class and I have been astounded at the number of mumsnetters who have argued

1. children shouldn't be in business class at all just in case they annoy someone who needs to work.

2. business people have paid so much for their tickets they deserve to be completely undisturbed.

Please can you tell me when it was decided
business people rights are more important than anyone else in the universe and they should be able to dictate who can buy a transport ticket on a public airline?

I thought we were all created equally. Or have things changed and some people out rank others according to earning power or their jobs?

the last Air Canada 747 went out of service in 2004.

BA fly 747s with 2-4-2 downstairs, 2-2 upstairs. The upstairs cabin is much preferred, and the 2-4-2 means families are more likely to go downstairs, but there's no rule about it.

SQ are phasing out the 747s, it's (single-deck) 777s and A380s to London now.

You can get seat maps here:

seatexpert.com/browse_by_airline.php

Singapore's 747 business class was split between upstairs and downstairs, as with BA.

Well, I would not fly long haul with my 13 month old unless absolutely necessary. I certainly would not do so for a holiday as he would hate the flight and (in most long haul flights) the jetlag. However, if I had to, I would ONLY fly business class (unless I could afford 1st class, of course ).

My money is as good as anyone else's. In addition, "business class" is just a name. It came into being when airlines wanted to segregate first class into two classes. Finally, for young babies, business class is much safer as there is actually more oxygen. I know this is hard to believe but, check it out, it is true. In cattle class, after lights out, they turn down the oxygen to 76/77% saturation to "help" people sleep. Hence, the unpleasant hungover feeling when you wake up from your 2 hour upright doze. That can be dangerous for newborns.

Larry, I never realised that about the oxygen levels. It is really interesting.

Oh yeah, AND the airlines seized the opportunity of the smoking ban to lower air quality. When smoking was around, they circulated the air more often or used more fresh air or whatever it is - I forget but the basic fact is sound. Cheaper for them to keep everyone short of oxygen, apparently.

I am pissed off by unruly, whiney kids whose parents just shrug or behave as if it's not their fault. The whole 'Kids - what can you do?' excuse. Most of the time - there are exceptions I know - it's lazy parenting. If your children have been shown how to behave in different circumstances no-one with any decency is going to complain. If they are the kind of kids who run riot, don't take the little shits on a plane in any class. Or anywhere else they will disturb people inappropriately. I do think taking children to formal places is good for their social development. But you have to be willing to put the effort into helping them understand the point of good manners. It's just about understanding the value of being considerate. If the parents don't get it, the children haven't got a chance.

millions of babies fly with no problems at all.

It's silly to suggest that there's different oxygen levels in the business class 'cabin' than economy a row behind.

Airlines do fly at a lower cabin pressure (oxygen level) than sea level, but a much higher pressure than the altitude they fly at.

All airlines fly with safe cabin pressure levels, but the A380 flies with a significantly higher pressure (5000 ft vs. 8000 ft) than other aircraft, so if you have ear problems, or if you want to minimise discomfort for a baby (whose ears will feel the change more), fly the A380.

I agree with Woody Allen, I have seen children in Club and in First, I have eaten at Le Gavroche and Gordon Ramsay at Claridge's and have seen well behaved children in there, eating quietly, behaving and acting as if it is completely normal to them.
This idea that areas or restaurants should be child free, probably comes from parents who can't look after their own children and so decide other parents are the same.
As we live in a free market economy what is one person's treat, or trip of a lifetime is the norm to some families and they shouldn't be denied that.

well yes, I'd ruddy hope there was much higher air pressure than outside the plane! Human beings aren't equipped to breathe unaided at however many thousands of feet a jumbo flies.

Well, I travel "business" class a lot for work and spend all the time working (no champagne for me, sadly) and am not bothered at all by children (although TBH there tend not to be many on the flights I go on). Children for whom I have no responsibilty are no problem at all for me and I can tune them out completely...

If I found noise a problem or really needed to sleep I would invest in a pair of earplugs.

And TBH if parents are worrying about bothering other passengers surely the compassionate approach is to realise that it is far worse to be bothered by other people's children when you are in economy class than when you are in business class with a bit more space between you and them?

Edam,

Well said. Some guy; what a ridiculous post! Clearly airlines have to ensure you survive the trip, otherwise it would not be much of a business.

It is not generally advised that newborns fly due to the incremental risk due to lower oxygen levels. Someguy, 8,000 feet is pretty high; in a ski resort you would be notably shorter of breath at that altitude and most people would not take a newborn straight to that height without acclimatisation. A doctor advised a friend of mine relocating with a six week old that business class was perfectly safe due to higher oxygen levels.

Most standard expat packages include a couple of family return flights a year in business class. Most businessmen, strangely enough, also have children and, if they can afford it (hard at the prices) will also travel business class on hols. Therefore, they do understand why kids are there.

The only proviso is that parents show consideration for the other people on the flight by keeping their children under control (as much as is possible). But parents allowing their children to behave like brats are as much resented in economy class or the local park!

I think that people lose track of the fact that anyone who has the money, and wants to use it in that way, is perfectly entitled to buy the ticket!

Ridiculous post? My post was factual while you are propagating a ridiculous urban myth.

As I said, if you want higher cabin pressure fly the A380. Otherwise you will NOT find different air pressure on opposite side of the black curtain, it's physically impossible.

The air quality is better in business/first though as air gets circulated from the front of the plane?

Phew - can't read all of the posts, but i think out of respect for other people its normal to behave appropriately for the environment you are in.
That applies to adults and children and its the parents responsibility to teach this to kids. So kids that can behave appropriately - fine in a smart restaurant/quiet theatre/business class etc.

Cripes, I'm worried now. My step-father has offered to pay for me and DH to travel Business Class with DD to visit him and my mum this autumn in Melbourne (yes, he is a very nice man!). Should I refuse and go economy as DD will only be about 16m at the time? I don't want to be pissing off important business-types all the way to Australia.....

I'd go business with DS (20 mths) if:

• it was a night flight
• we could afford to buy him his own seat
• if DH was with me (then at least one of us could be enjoying the business class seat whilst the other is doing laps of the plane)
• he was a bit older, so that he could watch a movie and sit still for longer than 5 minutes. I am guessing this might be when he is 3! Tell me I'm dreaming...

no no no no no no no no. a thousand times no.

Economy to Melbourne will be HELL. If you've got the offer of business class grab it with both hands.

Do try and get a seat for her though. And try and make both flights night flights (although beware of jet lag, take a stopover in Bangkok or some such).

Yes, economy to Melbourne is hell, have done it many times, but never with a baby!! [scared emoticon]. We've only got limited time though, so can't do any stopovers unfortunately. The flights are normally evening flights both ways, so that might help a bit.

Species, don't be MAD! If dd is really unsettled, you could always go and stand to the side - well, as much as possible in a plane anyway. She'll probably sleep most of the way anyway. Just either don't give her any meds unless she's actually ill, or else make sure you try it at home first. It's not really my thing, but I've heard of some people deciding to give it on a plane anyway, just to find out mid air that it made their children hyper.

Fuck no species, MN is in no way indicative of the real world.

If you can fly business then do so. Can't imagine there is anything very important going on in Melbourne that requires business types to be awake...

God no Species go business!!

I am going to Aus premium economy with two children now I am v worried about it being HELL.

Argh maybe I will take the parents offer to come over here.

Species - if you read back through the thread, you will see that those who think children shouldn't be in business are in fact very much in the minority.

and to all those people who say "as long as they are well-behaved children" - well, most people probably hope their children will be well-behaved, it just doesn't always work out that way. Or perhaps (like us) you have one who is good and the other who is....not so good. Can't really leave one back in economy (much as I would love to...)

I think as long as the parents look like they are trying to get the children to be good, most people are pretty tolerant.

I see no problem with children in business class, as so many others have said before me

However, I have moved seats when I found I was next to a woman with a toddler on a business class flight. It was partly because I didn't want to sit next to a toddler while working (was getting straight off the plane to go and give a presentation at a board meeting) but also because, if I moved, the toddler would have a seat to his/herself next to the mother (the flight was only half-full). So some of my motive was altruistic..........

economy to melbourne is not hell! it's pretty uncomfortable and when you get to where you're going (in our case wellington so yet another stop and onward leg from melbourne or sydney) you are really glad to be there! We've done it with ds1 and then last time around with both dss. if you had to do it then you'd get through it.

but I'm firmly in the camp of taking that business class offer if I were you. In fact as we relocated to joburg in january and dh's firm pay one ticket per year either back to london or to NZ for family visits, we're taking business to NZ this year for the first time. It will be bliss.

Hmm, thanks! Yes, I like the Business Class option, have never done it, may never do it again, so would be a bit daft to pass up the opportunity I guess . TBH if there was any other way of seeing my mum I wouldn't be keen to travel to the other side of the world with a toddler, but there is no way she'll ever be able to come over here due to illness and the longer we put off going the worse she'll get.