Children in business class......what the heck is wrong with it?

[Indaba]

Forgive the rant but I am so, so, so, so annoyed........I have been following a thread elsewhere asking about long haul holiday recommendations.

The poster was intending to fly business class and I have been astounded at the number of mumsnetters who have argued

1. children shouldn't be in business class at all just in case they annoy someone who needs to work.

2. business people have paid so much for their tickets they deserve to be completely undisturbed.

Please can you tell me when it was decided
business people rights are more important than anyone else in the universe and they should be able to dictate who can buy a transport ticket on a public airline?

I thought we were all created equally. Or have things changed and some people out rank others according to earning power or their jobs?

Daddywillbehomesoon - completely agree. Cabin class is irrelevant, it's behaviour that is important.

Agree on how other people parent their kids. Once waiting in an airport and we kept having this other families kids coming over and disrupting our lot. No problems usually with them playing with others but these parentqs were actively encouraging their kids to join up with ours so the parents could relax & read whilst waiting. Their kids were badly behaved & annoying us all the time.

We travelled from oop norf to down sarf once courtesy of DHs company who paid for first class tickets for all of us, including the kids. We were given stares of death by the 2 occupants of the first class carriage as we boarded. How I laughed an hour later when one of the suited and booted gents, got up from his seat, staggered towards the bathroom and promptly threw up all over the other one It made my weekend. (Although I did offer the pair of 'em some baby wipes)

OP YANBU.

I travelled business class on holiday once, courtesy of my Mum. I'm a respectable middle class girl (honest) and was about 25 at the time.

Whilst I was waiting to go the the loo a man behind me in the queue told me I shouldn't be using these loos and pointed me to the back of the plane .

Needless to say I was in the loo for a VERY VERY long time

Oh please, lets stop comparing a flight to a fine restaurant, it's public transport for goodness sake. It's just a flight, i.e getting from point A to point B. It's not a luxury by any means, well, neither is eating in a restaurant, unless you're talking Michelin.
You can raise as many as you wish, dear, your argument is faulty.
Flying is not exotic pursuit, it's a form of transport. Do you bitch on the train and bus as well? Same thing, different monies.
It's the unruly children and moronic parents who are unpleasant to have around, regardless where one is.

Will come back and read all of this thread later but:

• there will be plenty of people in Economy who will be flying for business purposes too, these days fewer and fewer companies/organisations/gov depts etc can afford to pay for people to fly business. Those flying business should just be grateful they are still able to and not worry about small children.

• some of us don't have a choice about taking our children on long-haul flights, we're not all on holidays. We have taken our children business/Upper when accompanying my DH on his posting overseas - in fact, we're all flying Upper back home on annual leave in just over two weeks time. So far haven't encountered any problems from other passengers and in fact have been complimented on the good behaviour of our dd's by one honeymooning couple

• I think as long as the parents look like they are trying to get their children to behave/sleep etc, most people are sympathtic.

• whoever mentioned taking children to the cinema - I went to our local cinema last week for an evening showing to find the place full of not just children but tiny babies. And yes some of them did cry/run around during the film. It did annoy me but it didn't seem to bother most people, I guess here they are just used to it. (I do worry about the poor baby's ears though...)

I guess it depends on what kind of child you have and what kind of parent you are. My two know better than to act up. If it looks like that is about to happen, I march them to the back of the plane and we have a serious chat.

Just once, we were upgraded to First Class, Row 1. I was in heaven. Honey was 3 years old. She was excited because the steward promised her a make-your-own Haagen Daaz ice cream sundae later in the 7-hour flight. She read, she played peek-a-boo with the people behind us, she listened to her own Walkman and then she fell fast asleep. She missed her ice cream.

I have noticed that some of the people in First and Business Class have those noise-excluding headphones by Bose when they know they need sleep or work-time. Everyone has the right to as calm and comfortable flight as they can get, regardless of whether they are rich or poor, whether their seat is paid for out-of-pocket, by their employer or through an upgrade. I would not give up a seat in First or Business Class that I was offered by upgrade. Also, just because a person in Economy who is paying hundreds for their flight, rather than thousands, doesn't mean that they are LESS DESERVING of a good flight.

I have a huge number of flights with kids under my belt; maybe 50 or so. I pack their carry-on bag with what each one needs for 12 hours, just in case of delays. I would never allow my children to shout, kick seats, throw things, play with noisy electronic toys or play with anything that rolls. My kids are not perfect. They sometimes fight about the window seat or who gets to sit next to me or the green marker. They love the movie selection, rarely sleep and seem to make friends of the adults and kids around us. Now we have a DS, which is great.

Flying is very restrictive, stressful and tiring for kids. Infants have it the hardest because of cabin pressure, not being able to express themselves and because they feed off their parent's stress. If it looks like a new mum is trying everything and about to lose it, I sometimes offer to hold a crying baby for a little while, so the lady can go to the loo or just take a breather.

All that being said, I believe that their behaviour is the parent's responsibility whether they are 2 yrs or 12. I do resent parents who just don't seem to care that their kid is bothering everyone around them. Be well-prepared, always pack an extra t-shirt and underpants even for kids up to 10 yrs old (waiting for the loo is really tough 4 some). Put your kitchen chairs into 2 or 3 rows, seat belt on (robe ties work well), perform the "emergency exit" talk just for laughs and practice an "airplane voice" at home for a few days before, every time they talk at high decibels. Should work in First Class, Business class or Economy.

"Do you bitch on the train as well?"

No, I don't bitch about seeing children in any public place. I even manage to restrain myself from rolling my eyes skyward.

It's just my opinion and I keep it all to my little self until asked on a public internet forum.

Just like you have your opinion that high-end restaurants and busines class cabins are completely different. Not in my eyes, they're not. They're both public places that you have to pay to use.

I'd imagine that kids would be better behaved the nicer the surroundings were, the more room they have, the more they're fed etc.

For those who don't want to be bothered by kids, check in early and request not to be seated by any families. Works for me.

There's no universal law that means just cos you've paid a lot of money for 'first class' travel, you automatically get an undisturbed journey. And not just because of children either!

I never get to travel Business class when flying for work (public sector!), but the one and only time I travelled first class for business on the train, the return journey was totally ruined by a incredibly drunk BUSINESSman. He ranted, slurred, fell over, spilt his drinks over people, intimidated the train staff. A horrible experience for everyone.

Ironically, I have had much calmer journeys in standard class, sat right by toddlers!!

I think it is wrong to allow children in business class. or alternatively, i think there should be an area or a class that is classified as non children.
i think thee should be child free holidays and child free restaurants aswell. not everyone wants to be around children. not everyone is a parent. or alternatively, sometimes when i go out for a meal with dh, it is the very thing that we are trying to get is a break from our children. we don't want to be around others children.
So Op, since when did it become gospel that children had to be allowed everywhere ? they still have 18 films right ? so you can go to eh cinema without being disturbed by children ?

why should you not be able to buy a child free plane ticket. i think you should be able to.

Oblomov, because the world doesn't revolve around you.

I'd like to get on a plane without smelly people, or obnoxious people or people with irritating regional accents

but I can't - I just have to learn to jog along with the rest of the human race instead.

Yes you can have child-free holidays and many restaurants don't let children in after 7pm but honestly!

the thing for me is that I don't mind if my children are excluded from a class if there is another of equal standard that we can go into. like on the trains, you have the quiet carriage, but children can go into any of the other standard class carriages.

so two kinds of business class, like the upstairs downstairs thing, would be fine.

but if I'm not allowed to choose the level of luxury I want because they don't allow children, that would annoy me.

I agree with Oblomov

There should be options to be child free on a plane- this doesnt have to exlude children completely.

Maybe some planes could be child free (like the red eye transatlantic flights- maybe 1 per day) or have sections wihin each class INCLUDING economy that are for adults only. I dont know e.g. adults at the back.

I've recently travelled cattle class to italy. 2 flights each way. Plane boiling and packed full. My DD (1.5)very tired. It was hell on wheels. I'm flying alone to visit relatives later in the year. I'd be gutted to get a baby next to me! Despite being a parent!

I think if someone set up an adults only airline it would do an absolutely roaring trade.

fruitstick, why are you making it so personal ? what makes you think i am so arrogant and self centred to imagine that the world revolves around me. I don't.

you can have child free holidays.... but honestly. but honestly what ?

when did children become so important. more important than any other member of society. 'oh you're so anti children.' 'oh... children should be allowed everyhwere.'

errrrrr. no. sorry.

why should you not be able to go places where there is a no children rule. seems fair to me.

if it really is a business requirement for you to have a flight completely undisterbed by other passangers (be they children making noise, adults travelling together talking, other passangers chatting loudly to the cabin crew etc) then your company would charter a private jet. Many do for their top brass.

My boss came back from a trip to San Fran last year complaining she'd not been able to get any work done even though she was in 1st class, but that's because one of our board was on the same flight, had asked to sit next to her and bored her with tales of his DGCs latest sporting achievements the whole way back... And I bet there was a flight full of people near them who also had to hear and really didn't want to know.

Business class normally is quieter becuase most people are travelling on their own so don't have anyone to talk too. A couple on the flight together without children could be just as distracting if they talk the whole flight.

oh and re the 'child free airline' - I can see that being as sucessful as the 'business class only' attempts, as in, nice idea, but would require a premimum to make up for taking the 'bread and butter' trade away - and in this economic climate, most won't pay.

TooPragmatic - yes, they're both public places, and while we can forego restaurants under your rules, how do you suppose we move our children from A to B, if we can't use planes?

Do you, for example, expect me to catch a train to New Zealand so that my DS can visit his Grandad?

I mean, are you seriously saying that there should be an unwritten rule that anyone travelling with children bunk down in economy, even if they don't have to or need to...?

And Oblomov - as soon as airlines start selling child-free tickets, you can start buying them.

Oh, and as for the R18 comparison - are you serious? The reason for the 18 restriction is not so as viewers won't be disturbed by any children! How is this example in any way comparable?

As an aside, which airline does everyone think is the most family-friendly?

For facilities, I would probably vote Virgin (apparently Richard Branson even thought about installing a sand pit on one of his planes....)

For service, I would vote Royal Thai. Our baby was pretty ill on one (business class!) flight from Bangkok, throwing up everywhere, the cabin crew were fantastic, didn't blink an eyelid or worry about them crawling all over the floor moments from take-off...

For the worst airlines, I think American Airlines is pretty bad - they don't even provide lap belts for infants who have to travel on your lap...

And I have always found BA crew fairly stuffy and child unfriendly. With notable exceptions of course.

Air New Zealand are great with babies and children, but their service is really good anyway.

I don't like kids in high end restaurants - I don't think that is the same as a plane at all.

Went out for anniversary dinner with DP and at the next table was (what seemed) a very newborn baby - couple of weeks tops.

I think if you want to go out and have a peaceful evening and are spending money on dinner, the last thing you want or need (when you have forked out for babysitters yourself) is someone else's baby crying next to you.

But I am completely sanguine about crying babies on flights. But I think to me flying is just a way of getting somewhere, however old you are, and not enjoyable in itself, and a evening at a restaurant is (or should be) adults only.

Cue loads of posts saying 'oh but in Italy babies are welcome everywhere'.

Don't care. Am not Italian. Am English and grouchy.

5 dollar, i know why films are given their certificates. please don't treat me like i'm stupid. i was just saying that you CAN go to the cinema for a child free evening, i.e going to see an 18 film, is thats what you want/what tickles your fancy.
and no, buying a child free plane seat is not my top priority , actually.

but i'm just saying. mn is a parenting site. pro children. many posters want children to be allowed everywhere.
but i do not think that is representative of what people want generally. and i personally think that children have now become too ..... important/dominant..... can't think of word.
everything is child centred. everything is the 'child comes first'. even though i have children i think that the world has become a bit too child focused. we've gone from a child is seen and not heard era to the child is king era. balance needs restoring.

i think you should be able to go to places - planes/restaurants/films/anywhere actually and not encounter children. not everyone wants to be around children.
i was under the impression that these companies that cater for holidays for ... over 60's ?? .... are child free. do you demand that children are allowed to go on those too. why should 60 or 75 year olds not be able to go on holiday with like-minded/aged people if thats what they want.

is it sandals that do child free holidays ? thought they were doing a buzzing trade. bet you they are !!!
bet you other companies that limit the spectrum of people, aren't always criticised.
But on Mn they are.
'oh i went to a child free restaurant'. 'what a crime'. 'children should be allowed everywhere.'
no, i'm sorry, i'm afraid i can't agree with that.

nothing wrong with it