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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

nursery for babies

326 replies

clarinetplayer · 06/07/2010 10:05

to tell my sister that she will miss out on many of the most important milestones in her baby's life if she sends her aged six months to nursery 5 days a week from 8am until 6pm. This is longer than a school day. My sister got very offended when I suggested that being looked after as part of a cohort of 8 babies by three carers was not ideal for her seven month old daughter. She doesn't need to work full time but loves her job and is worried that if she goes pt she'll miss out on promotion. Is it unreasonable to think that now she's a mum she should put her daughter's needs first?

OP posts:
LadyBiscuit · 07/07/2010 10:57

Meandmykid - that is completely and utterly wrong. No one that young has ever looked after my DS

MeandMyKid · 07/07/2010 10:59

quote there is a hell of a lot more to being a good parent

So what exactly are these "good" things a parent is doing then if they don't see their kids during the week.

FindingMyMojo · 07/07/2010 11:03

YABU, unsupportive and mean to your sister.

meandmykid - you are out of touch.

Personally I preferred a private childminder to a nursery, but each to their own.

LadyBiscuit · 07/07/2010 11:03

Is your husband a shit dad because he's out at work during the day meandmykid?

MeandMyKid · 07/07/2010 11:03

Sunny, I'm sure you have a good position within your nursery but it's the young girls that spend most of their time with the kids whilst the higher educated ones have managerial positions with little child input.

LadyBiscuit · 07/07/2010 11:04

How do you know so much (wrongly) about nurseries given you wouldn't send your children to one? I'm intrigued

sunny2010 · 07/07/2010 11:08

meandmykid - What are you talking about? I am not in a managerial position and neither are the three other members of staff who are either studying or already have their degree. I work for £6 an hour and I dont mind as I do it for the children. There are loads of staff in the same position as I go to both local meetings and the national nursery exhibitions. What is the point of having a childhood studies degree if you arent going to be working directly with the children?

Confuzled · 07/07/2010 11:12

MeandMyKid, is there some way in which a young girl without a fabulous education is thus a lesser life form and not fit to look after the children of sophisticated types such as yourself?

I looked after kids at 16 and did a good job, as I love them and find them hilarious, endearing and fascinating. I did not need a Cambridge law degree to do this. I needed to be responsive, interested and loving.

sunny2010 · 07/07/2010 11:19

I agree with Confuzled I am only 26 myself but we have modern apprentices that are under 18 that are fantastic and committed. You definitely dont seem to be aware of how things are in most nurseries. We have Early Years Professional Status which is a post graduate status to educate staff to lead practice.

www.cwdcouncil.org.uk/eyps

Also you do not realise how committed you need to be to work in childcare. Many people cannot hack it as it involves staff meetings, lots of additional courses and lots of commitment of your time. I do lots of work from home and my whole aim is to provide high quality care for the children. I do it for the love and the families I work with definitely dont see me or the staff at my setting as 'strangers'.

MeandMyKid · 07/07/2010 11:21

I have worked in 4 nurseries and most of the girls do the bare minimum and do not actively converse with the kids. They basically "watch" them so the kids don't hurt themselves.

Confuzled, do you think you are better at looking after kids now than you were at 16? Surely the answer must be yes - it would be worrying if it was not as most people get better at their jobs, not stay the same or get worse? Therefore why would a mother or father want such young adults to look after their kids on a full time basis as mentioned by OP unless it was absolutely necessary.

FWIW, I put two of my kids into nursery full time from age 1-2 years for a year and only when I started to work in them and see the difference in my kids that did not go did I realise I would never stick them in full time again.

redblue · 07/07/2010 11:22

sunny2010 i send my daughter to a nursery. The "manager" is a girl who opens the door to parents and is supposed to report back to parents at the end of the day about what happened to their children, issues of note etc. The nursery is (wrongly in my opinion) set us so parents have less opportunity to talk with the "younger" girls who look after the children and they seem to prefer that all communication or most of it is done with the manager. Like you the manager has a degree (or is working towards one). However I can emphatically say that just observing the younger girls compared with the manager I would much prefer my daughter to be cared for by (most of) the younger girls, who are all genuinely loving, play enthusiastically with the children and interact with them and entertain them happily compared with the manager whose style with the children is much more dismissive and disciplinarian. I guess she thinks that having a degree makes her better but I think the complete opposite. What parents want ideally when they leave their children at a nursery or a childminder is to know their children are loved, cuddled, played with, introduced to new experiences and generally have a fun and (as a by product) educational time. Parents aremuch less impressed by formal education - that should be an absolute given that the nursery knows about developmental stages and milestones, health and safety etc. So your degree is not really something I would look for at the top of my list when selecting a nursery.

In responses to the original poster, I sent my 6 month baby girl to a nursery with the 3 to 1 ratio. We didnt need the money insofar as we wouldnt have been on the breadline if I hadnt gone back to work but equally my long term employment prospects would be seriously damaged if there was not some continuity on my CV and getting a job in future years would be much much much harder with several years of nothing on my CV than if I did something which I am doing. Did it break my heart to leave her? Yes. Is it a total and absolute luxury to stay at home and look after your babies and have a career break. Yes. You lucky mums who get to do this. It is not a guilt trip (or if it is a guilt trip, it is my own). And for that reason you are being unreasonable to pass judgement so openly. Maybe she can love her career, not need the money and still feel pain and guilt at leaving her baby with others to look after. Things are not black and white.

sunny2010 · 07/07/2010 11:24

Well you obviously worked in bad nurseries then. Why didnt you change the practice? Why didnt you report to OFSTED etc? If it was poor quality at those settings it was your fault to.

Why didnt you check the nurseries OFSTED reports before putting your children in them? Why on earth did you put them in nurseries primarily ran by very young staff?

Confuzled · 07/07/2010 11:29

"Confuzled, do you think you are better at looking after kids now than you were at 16? Surely the answer must be yes - it would be worrying if it was not as most people get better at their jobs, not stay the same or get worse? Therefore why would a mother or father want such young adults to look after their kids on a full time basis as mentioned by OP unless it was absolutely necessary."

No, I don't, and I am not working with kids now either. I think at 16 I had more patience, more playfulness and more genuine interest in kids in general, as opposed to mine in particular. I was hugely broody, knew I was way too young to have babies, and thoroughly enjoyed adoring other people's. Now, I find them boring. Which is why I am in no way involved in caring for any kids other than my own.

sunny2010 · 07/07/2010 11:29

redblue - Obviously a degree isnt the most important thing. Our nursery lets the parents speak to the keyworker when the children leave at night. We ALL take part in playing with the children even the manager. We run the nursery for the children and their needs come first. If you dont know your children then what happens in social services incidents etc. I dont think a degree is the most important thing, far from it. I live for my job and just did the degree.

I would never be a manager though because I wouldnt want to work one minute away from the children. I even do my planning at home when I dont have to because I just want to play, but I am a big kid

MeandMyKid · 07/07/2010 11:30

All the nurseries in our area had young staff. I did report the last nursery which, without naming names, was in the public eye. How as an apprentice and then newly qualified (only NVQ) could I change the entire practice - I was bottom of the rung!

Why are you saying why didn't you, why didn't you - I did where I could! Ofsted reports are not worth the paper they are printed on.

I am not anti nurseries but having your kids at home is not a luxury (ffs woever said that!) and if you don't have to send them off all day everyday then surely part time would be a balance.

Te fact is we live in a Me, Me society and our kids are suffering.

Oblomov · 07/07/2010 11:31

OP not come back. no surprise.

Missus84 · 07/07/2010 11:36

Most nursery workers aren't 16-18 as under 18s don't count in staffing ratios

I work in a nursery and our staff range in age from 19 to 50s, several are mothers and a couple are grandmothers, and off the top of my head I can think of 4 or 5 staff members who work directly with the children who have Early Childhood degrees or post graduate qualifications including a qualified teacher. We don't use any under 18 year old apprentices or trainess, and I wouldn't put my child in a nursery that did.

Basically I think we do provide top quality care from top quality staff, and we have had babies start with us at 3-6 months and do 50 hour weeks - however I still believe that being in a nursery environment full time is not in a small baby's best interests.

sunny2010 · 07/07/2010 11:38

well meandmykid - Every child in my nursery has a parent on the minimum wage (due to my area) I know most personally and they are carers, road sweepers and other helpful jobs that we need as a society. Would you prefer them not to work and claim off the government? I commend the parents that I know for working and in return I hope our team offer fantastic childcare for their children.

MeandMyKid · 07/07/2010 11:42

Well for being so educated the nursery staff seem to be ignoring my comments that unless it is absolutely necessary - and that would be minimum wage workers and other scenarios - then I don't think kids should be in nursery full time from 6 months onwards.

sitdownpleasegeorge · 07/07/2010 11:48

katiestar

I see your sadfaced anecdotal evidence of badly behaved children always having done long hours at nursery and will simply quash it with the happier facts in my case.

My ds1 is the only child in his class with a working mum who used a nursery from 9.30 to 5pm each day so for argument's sake lets call it full-time. When he was a baby I worked part-time increasing back to full time by the time he was 6 months. He never experienced a seperation anxiety period at nursery unlike the children starting when they were 6 months+.

His reception teacher called him "an angel", telling me he had the best attitude to paying attention, working nicely and getting along with others despite not knowing any other children in his class when he started school. This has not changed in his 3 years of schooling so far.

BUT ALL CHILDREN ARE DIFFERENT.

IMHO, what a parent needs to do is determine which childcare best suits their child and monitor/update that decision throughtout the child's development. I am currently investigating alternative childcare for ds2 as I believe he would benefit from something different in his final period of pre-school. This is mainly because the pre-school he currently attends has taken a very staff friendly approach to adopting the EYFS curriculum and children now seem to maraud around in packs for chunks of the day rather than being gently directed in their activities. He is not being encouraged to sit and scribble and they no longer do any of the very basic level jolly phonics which they did with ds1. They tell me all the changes over the past 2 years are to do with the EYFS but it does seem more convenient for the staff too. The children only do what they want to do, outside of a couple of brief registration and circle time sessions each day. (This does not mirror the home environment where ds2 would have to fit in with my daily round of housework and errands if I were a sahm and he were at home with me).

You talk of giving up a career as "a bit of a sacrifice" . You are way off the mark there. It's huge! The off ramps are plentiful and easy to take, there are very few on ramps to get back to where you need to be plus it's way more likely that you'll be able to get some flexibility in a job/career where you are established and valued than it is that you'll find a well paid flexible job to take up once you've finished you child rearing career break.

You say a CM would provide a home environment. This too is fraught with pitfalls. A friend found out that her CM fed her dd supernoodles and peas, no meat or other protein source and the cheapest value brand yoghurt, at least twice a week. She only discovered this sort of information once her dd was old enough to reliably report on what actually was offered at lunchtime as opposed to the sample menu she was shown. Another instance I know of the CM was driving an unroadworthy vehicle daily with mindees in it and the first thing parents knew was when the prosecution notice appeared in the local paper.

Childcare is fraught with pitfalls, being a working parent is a constant juggling act, particularly if you as "muuuummeee" are the one that's really needed when illness strikes.

Katiestar, you also uphold the mumsnet paradox that no one on here leaves their career/job because they loathed it, were looking for a way out of the workplace anyway and had no desire to return after maternity leave ended. Oh No! they do it as a sacrifice because they believe they should be at home with their children, not because they simply prefer that way of life to their previous working life.

I could tell people that the worst behaved children I come across are generally from families where there is some sort of grief going on at home, violent parents, parents at war with each other, PND afflicted single mums, drug addicted/alcohol dependent parents, parents who think the type of buggy they push is more important than talking to their child, singing to them etc etc. See, lots of really awful vile stereotypes to trot out aren't there. Have you got any more you'd like to flog us working mums with ?

OP - Your quest for justification fails on many counts e.g. you don't seem to consider milestones important for the father, you're not saying he is selfish for missing them.

8am to 6pm is longer than a school day - your sister's baby will sleep through a good deal of it. Last time I checked there were no beds at school for naps and sleeping to take place. There'll be trips out in buggies etc, no walking to exert the baby.

I could go on but this is a very disappointing thread, MN ain't what it used to be as far as enlightened womanhood is concerned and support for each other's life choices.

LadyBiscuit · 07/07/2010 11:48

That's your opinion. Mine is different because I know what works for me and my DS. FWIW he is upset when it's the weekend and the nursery is shut (before he cheers up because we are going somewhere fun for the day).

redblue · 07/07/2010 11:57

Everything that sitdownpleasegeorge says, hear hear

Confuzled · 07/07/2010 11:58

"Well for being so educated the nursery staff seem to be ignoring my comments that unless it is absolutely necessary - and that would be minimum wage workers and other scenarios - then I don't think kids should be in nursery full time from 6 months onwards. "

They are not ignoring your comments. They are disagreeing with them. Why on earth should they engage with the personal opinion of a random, anonymous person on the internet, as opposed to her mistakes of fact? Perhaps if you were as well educated as they, you might grasp that difference.

thatbuzzingnoise · 07/07/2010 12:19

I teach secondary. Having my own children has given me a different viewpoint of the lives children led before they reach me. I mean, before they even reach school. I see a lot of insecurely attached teenagers who were insecurely attached toddlers. The strops these rather large children throw and really the same thing they did as toddlers. Just that now the strops are a lot more intimidating. They just seem to have never grown out of that developmental phase and seem doomed to repeat the behaviour.

WOHM/SAHM nursery/or not rich/poor, single/double parent etc. does not matter. What they lack was responsiveness to their needs especially before the age of one and continuing to the age of 5. Nurseries can be as good as and even better than some parents at providing responsiveness and a good decent nursery is better than neglectful parenting any day. (I overheard one lad (12yo) telling his friend very matter of factly about how he was quite severely neglected at home when he would have been about 3 and it makes sense now to me why he is as he is.) By the time children reach school, changing course in their behaviour patterns is stuck.

the Jesuits had as their motto: "give me a child until he is seven and i will give you the man".

t'is true imo.

Confuzled · 07/07/2010 12:41

thatbuzzingnoise, beautifully put.

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