nursery for babies

[clarinetplayer]

to tell my sister that she will miss out on many of the most important milestones in her baby's life if she sends her aged six months to nursery 5 days a week from 8am until 6pm. This is longer than a school day. My sister got very offended when I suggested that being looked after as part of a cohort of 8 babies by three carers was not ideal for her seven month old daughter. She doesn't need to work full time but loves her job and is worried that if she goes pt she'll miss out on promotion. Is it unreasonable to think that now she's a mum she should put her daughter's needs first?

Mutt, I turn around and you are still here...

No it's being bitchy for the sake of it, because you can.

And so are you blueshoes, another one with nowt better to do than gang up on me?

Quote you, mutt "Who cares? It's right what they say about Mumsnet being full of bullies with nowt better to do. I'm off."

I never said I was going anywhere. I never said I did not care.

Quite enjoying your bumping this thread.

Trotting on!

"so I don't really get the focus on the first year or two"

My understanding is (and I would hold up my hands and say 'Not sure I understand all of this') that the first year is crucially important because of the way babies brains are developing during that time. I've read that the neural pathways of the brain are being established during the first few months of life - and that unduly high cortisol levels can cause damage to this, thereby programming a child for life to have more difficulty coping with stress in adulthood.

"but where finding a substitute parent is much much harder".

I don't worry about babies being cared for by a 'substitute parent' - ie childminder, relative, nanny. My concern is about babies doing long hours in institutions where caregivers are consistently looking after 2 or 3 babies each and where there is regular staff turnover. Unfortunately a lot of nurseries where I live would fall into this category.

Re: enjoying your children's early life more than anything else - I'm afraid I may look back in a few decades time and say this, as my mother also does. I find babies and small children very, very joyful to be with (despite the fact they're often sticky and noisy!).

In fact I'm setting up as a childminder so I can have another small person in the house to enjoy, now that my youngest is at school full-time! Can't wait!

"so you imply that folks who don't agree with you are drunk

nice"

Not as nasty as some of the posts here making digs about SAHM's being inadequate scroungers who are trying to falsely elevate the importance of their role to justify the fact they're professional failures.

Absolutely, Titty.

dont do the poor wee slighted poster.you erroneously attempted a lame putdown because you didnt likey the way the thread was going.so you have dished it out plenty

titty - I think most WOHMs equally feel that some of the SAHMs on this thread have been extremely disparaging about our choices, implying that our children are in some way going to turn into complete sociopaths as a result of going to nursery. Which is clearly rubbish.

Anyway, I just wish women could be more supportive of other women's choices, whatever they are, without ripping each other to shreds.

And I violently disagree with the poster who said that a mother is more important to children than a father. Once past BF stage, that is just nonsense, and very very disparaging to all men, especially those like my DH who share the childcare and spent time as a SAHD. Did he do the same things as I did as a SAHM? No, of course not, he did things his way, and they involved a lot more merriment and a lot less drudgery than my life as a SAHM (hence us also employing a cleaner at the same time since chores weren't part of his day!). Was he worse than me at it? Hell, no, perhaps even better. As a result, we have a very very well adjusted child who thrives with both of us, is equally comfortable with both of us having a nurturing role, and is confident in any situation, even when at nursery.

TBH, if you don't think men can be as much a parent as women, I'd suggest that's a problem with the men in your life rather than with the sex as a whole.

the sahm/working mum mêlée is only a mn phenomena.in rl people dont care.certainly i have not encountered much jip for ft working and babies in nursery.only at the hv baby group did some precious moments mamas chuff on about precious moments.but overall in rl i dont see this enacted with the fervour it is on planet mn

scottish - sadly, I have been verbally attacked by a mum at a group meet for abandoning my child (her terminology, not mine) to the horrors of pre-school. Bearing in mind DD was 2 at this stage, I thought she was being slightly hysterical.

And I was attacked by a particularly strident NCT mother for 'stunting my child's development' by not sending him to f/t nursery when he was 18 months. There are some oddballs in RL too!

Ok, I spent all day with my DD (5) today... and I did not encounter any 'precious moments' prey tell what are these moments you speak of..?

foureeleven I think the precious moments are:

first smile
first giggle
first holding head up
first roll
first sitting
first crawl
first stand
first walk
first word

Most of those round here at the moment are met with cries of 'Oh god, he can do x now. Up the baby proofing again'. At least when I go back to (pt) work in 4 months DS should have met all his precious moments targets...

OP. It isn't a decision I would make personally, but equally it is rude to comment on it even if it is your sister. However easy a decision it is on paper she might have been worrying or agonising about it and your opposition will only make her feel backed into a corner if she does have doubts and upset her when it isn't your business.

oh thats fine then DD had done all but the last 3 or 4 of these by 5 months when I went back to work and did the last 3/4 while I was with her at the weekend.

Hoorah, thought I was missing out on something great what with all the precious moment mamas comments!

I suppose it was rather preious when DD smugged a birdpoo covered foot on my new maxi dress today, but I would hav prefered to have missed it TBH.

Just another point, my cousin who is queen of precious moments mamas gave up work 3 months in to hher pregnancy to make sure she did the absolute best for her child and rants on about how being a SAHM is what she owes her DD or else 'why did she bother having her' - In front of me who works full time to be able to provide financially for my DD, and in a really mean and condesending way.

... her DD took her first steps while My mum and I were looking after her on a Saturday and said cousin was away Ha-bloody-ha....

Another mean comment from foureleven. Nice.

I think the precious moments are nothing to do with first steps and such like. I think they are the funny moments that arise for no good reason at all. I had one walking round the centre of Oxford with DS when he had just turned four. It was an 'oh my God, life just doesn't get better than this' moment. I've had similar moments since. But even I would have to say that those moments are not the privilege of SAHMs. Maybe they just feel like it, though, as SAHMs get so much rubbish stuff too.

It was actually meant in jest and to add a little perspective IHJL. And if you read it properly, cousin was very mean and condesending to me when I was trying to do the best in my own way for my child so my tongue in cheek joke was warranted I feel.

Although I think your last comment is very valid. i do think a lot of people who stay at home with their children like to think that these precious moments are something only they get to enjoy because it reaffirms that they have made the right choice.

Of course working mums get them too, and we have o do the hard stuff... getting a 5 year old and an 11 year old girl up, dressed and out of the house for 7.30 is no picnic!

Oh Titty I know that the first few years are neurologically important, although my understanding is that the cortisol studies have on the whole not been terribly well conducted (no control groups, small numbers etc) but have also shown a very small raise, which some neurologists do not consider significant (the studies on the whole are not conducted by neurologists but social scientists). I get the impression that cortisol is measured mostly because it is very easy (simple swab) but although it is a fight or flight hormone it is produced due to stimulation, both positive and negative - exercise raises cortisol for example. The reports then conflate this small raise with studies of children who are effectively neglected/abused and have very very high levels. So it feels to me like a bit of a boogie man. Oh, and it is only associated with poor quality nursery provision (mainly low staffing numbers).

Personally I think that it is fantastic that there are people like you who think that babies are wonderful. I was very happy for my babies to be cared for by people who thought that they were fantastic, just because they were babies/toddlers really. Personally I have enjoyed my own children more and more as they have got older. I just find it odd that this debate is often solely centred on babies. Our experience was that the children were very happy with their carers when they were small (whether nannies or nursery) but much less so as they got older and needed help with their homework, relationships and general growing up stuff.

Nooka that is a very interesting point and one I tried to make on a thread the other day whilst trying to justify (for what of a far better word) my choice for working full time when mine was 5 months.. I have now built enough status at work that i am able to work flexibly around home working etc and pick ups from school once or twice a week. Where as I dont feel my DD needed me as much when she was a baby, I think anyone who cared for her properly would have done... but now shes 5 and the DSD is 11, they seem to need me more and thankfully Im able to be there.
Working the same hours but flexibly as I have built my career in a way that i am able to do that..

foureleven, I did realise that your cousin was being foul. It was the "ha-bloody-ha" that I didn't realise was tongue in cheek.

I do think your point is interesting about your children needing you more now that they're older. I know we are not ever going to agree re. SAHM/WOHM, but I personally think it's hugely important for me to be at home until the children have left home. That, of course, wouldn't rule out paid or voluntary work during school term times. I wouldn't have had anyone but DH or me or my mum look after my babies - but I do think you have a point about older children needing just as much care.

I think I needed my mum most when I was 13-18. I needed her to be there every single day when I got home from school; she was the person I could talk to about the minutiae of my day whilst watching Countdown and having a cup of tea. All my happiest memories of teenage years involve my mum and my gran. This evidently colours my view of how I want to bring up my own children: I'd like them to feel the same when they're 35. That said, they'll probably be plotting to have me abducted or something.

Probably IHJL, you old villian you

The way we are brought up, whether our experience was good or bad has such a huge effect.

I was brought up by my mum who worked full time as a teacher.. and as we were skint she would work school holidays in M&S or something. Occassionally she would have a big drama about missing my sister and I and leave work for 6 months or so to be at home with us - we could never understand the big deal because we were quite happy with her working.

It was constant stress because we didnt have any money and then she'd have to go back to work which she hated.. when she wasnt working she was unhappy too because dad thought that if she was at home she should keep the house like a show home and do all the cooking/ child care etc and so if mum was staying at home, we didnt get much care from dad, as mum did it all...

It was pretty fraught and mum just battled with keeping everyone happy all of the time, everyone but herself. Which ironically made everyone else miserable.. Then dad left her anyway and because she had never focussed on her career properly-she was left without a bean to her name...

From that situation I suppose a woman ending up to want to have a career that is fulfilling as well as her own financial independance is probably 'text book'

My daughters seem a lot happier than me and my sister ever were.

That's very interesting, foureleven. I think you're absolutely right about the effect of one's own upbringing. I grew up with two fantastic, funny, happily married parents (SAHM, as mentioned, and fun-at-weekends dad), extended family nearby, lots of animals, a reasonable amount of money, and in a general air of golden happiness. I think that this has in some way become inextricably linked with SAHM-ing for me, however illogical it is for so many people in practice.

My main fear is that my children won't be as happy as I was!