to try to find a full time out of the house job asap so I don't have to entertain my two DSs alone for 8 weeks over the summer?

[livethedream]

They are nearly 2 and nearly 4. DS is usually at playgroup 5 mornings awake but it's a training day today so they're both at home together.

Oh my god, they fight. It is so tedious, I am just constantly refereeing between them - no matter what games/activities I set up, they bicker and argue and physically hurt each other. DS1 sneakily tries to hit his brother or tread on his toes whereas DS2 retaliates by biting him so hard it nearly breaks the skin.

There will be 8 weeks between DS1 finishing playgroup and starting school. If we were minted and DH didn't work we could have a lovely time. But here in the real world it's just me and I'm skint and it's going to be a real struggle to think of somethign free to do every single day for 8 weeks. That's 56 days.

I have no idea if I could find a job that would pay enough to put them both with a childminder all summer but my god, I woudl probably run at a loss to get out of 8 whole weeks of these two.

Does this make m e a terrible mother? My mother thinks I should savour every second as these are the best years ever, which I find a bit demoralising. (And it rankles, as she ran off when me and my brother were this age!)

porca - seriously did not expect abuse, still don't quite see why it attracted so much. That'll teach me to be flippant I suppose, but I was writing from an exhausted point of harassment.

My top tips for getting through long summer hols with 2 very small children are:

1. Take it a day at a time. Don't look beyond tomorrow.

1. Do something every day, even if it's just going to the park, or for a swim or for a walk or to the library.

1. Buy them el cheapo kids cameras and a little photo album and get them to take pictures of anything they want to put in their albums. My youngest had a go when he was 2 and took some great pics of the ground and the sky but he loved doing it.

1. Invest in a paddling pool and a rug and if the weather is nice just chill in your garden

1. Go for picnics

1. Check your local nursery to see if they do holiday clubs and book then in there 2 mornings a week to give you a break

1. Look for mother and toddler groups near by

1. Hang out with your other mum friends and their kids

As someone else says, the more you do it the easier it gets and the better you get at it. We have 8 weeks of hols too and I'm much more laid back about it than last year. In fact, I'm looking forward to chilling out with the children and hanging out with friends.

Good luck

You will be fine. I promise.

If she had titled her OP "dreading the long holidays, any ideas" the thread would have got about 12 replies.

I'm sure the OP knows she doesn't really want a FT job for the 8 week hols, as when it comes to it she'll muddle along and all will be well. However the prospect of being at home all day every day with 2 preschoolers for 8 weeks is enough to make you reach for the temazepam, however much you adore your children.

I am mightily relived I get to go to work for 20 hours a week, year round, as I am a far better parent when I am not spending 24 hours a day with my daughters. I love them more than life itself but with DH away for nearly 5 months I get pretty weary of being MumAndDadAndChiefCookAndBottleWasher all the time.

To me parenting is about quality of time, not quantity.

From the other side (at the risk of repeating myself) - my Mum had me and my older brother all the time. She had a miserable time of it and so did we.

I wish we'd been packed off to a little holiday club for a few mornings here and there; we'd have come back to a happier mother, I'm sure.

If you CAN do it 24/7 - well, good for you. Well done. I'm not so good at it for long periods of time, which is why I try to get a bit of balance for us all.

I have a massive age gap so my kids never argue, however i have a niece (9) and nephew (11) who i will only have one at a time ....because of the constant bickering !! Drives me nuts - and it not bad behavior (they don't do it to my sons) it is just a constant one up on each other.

Livethedream - just got back from a picnic. Hellish morning wanting to MN and children not wanting me too! Went out all afternoon with a load of friends. Didn't see the children for dust!

And can I just comment on this that you said a lot earlier:

"Only a generation or so ago raising children was a much more communal affair - it isn't natural or healthy to make parenting a one person job. Children used to be cared for by extended family, neighbours and friends and mothers weren't left in isolation to do it all by themselves."

You are so utterly right, which is why I strongly suggest you make lots of time to spend with friends and family. Be honest - I bet they'll nod in knowing sympathy when you say that you want to meet up with them somewhere outside so you don't kill both the children!

I know I was a bit harsh at first, but you've only really been abused by the OTT rollmops - ignore her.

Riven - I'm sorry you seem to be taking this so personally. Surely you must understand your situation is totally different. You can't take your DD somewhere and expect her to run off and play so you can have a breather for five minutes! You never get a breather at all!

Thank you Sidge and Druzhok. 20 hours a week sounds like a perfect arrangement.

I hate the thought that they might actually know I'm miserable. (Actually, I'm not generally miserable so much as bored but it probably looks the same from the outside.)

Manda - someone recently commented that my boys are particularly bickersome. I guess all kids are different - some fight, some don't. and if you've never spent time around particularly difficult children (which I'm guessign is the case with soem on this thread) you'd have a hard time relating to it.

Yes why don't you get a full time job I'm sure you will find it an absolute picnic to get them off to childcare, put in a full days work, sneak off because you have to leave on time, pick up two fractious children then make dinner and sort out all the housework in the evening. Oh and hopefully neither of them will be ill, because that too is a complete doddle when you are working, you can a) either tell your work the truth and get treated like a shirker b) lie and say you are ill c) enter into complex negotiations with your DH about who has the most important job and has the most on that particular day so cannot possibly stay at home, and lose.

I actually do have a lot of sympathy I can imagine a full summer with a 4 yr old and a 2 yr old would be daunting. I have complete respect for SAHMs but you evidently do not for those of us who work if you somehow think it is easier to juggle parenting with working than it is to be at home. They are both hard, everything is hard when they are under 5, but hey they will grow up soon.

On a more helpful note, there are a number of summer activities for over 3s where you can drop them off for a couple of hours. We have a local magazine called Families, where they list all the summer clubs and things to do.

rookie I don't respect working mothers? Oh dear god, I can't say a thing right on here today. I have no doubt it's difficult, I did it myself for a while. But it would be easier for me to work, at least a bit, than it is for me to stay at home all the time. Because staying at home is driving me slowly but surely round the bend.

Sorry livethredream, I don't mean to pour salt in the wound. I am finding working and looking after DS difficult at the minute, so my rose tinted fantasy would involve me being at home, but the reality is that I don't think I would be that good at it.

rookie - I'm sorry you're having a hard time. I think the truth is that parenting can be unbearably hard at times either way. Unless you're a father in which case they seem able to side step this whole angsting about whether what you're doing is fucking your kids up for life and the constant questioning of choices. (I know, I'm generalising, before any fathers come and start throwing shit at me, but why is it that women seem to get more mental torment out of parenting than men do? Woudl genuinely like to know so I can take a leaf...)

I have a 6yr old, 4yr old and 2yr old for 6 weeks over the summer.

We plan on going swimming - A LOT! Obviously I am at an advantage that I have DH home as well, but his disabilities mean we could have 6 weeks of him being ok enough to swim or 6 weeks of him not being able to do much at all.

I will be playing it by ear this year!

DD1 has 5 mornings of play scheme, and 2 mornings of drama workshop, but nothing planned for the other 2 DCs

We also have 3 weeks of the holidays taken up with grandparents visiting, 1 week of inlaws and 2 weeks of my dad so that will help massively.

We too are skint and unable afford to do much, but walks on the beach, in the forest, and picnics in the park cost next to nothing. Its all a case of being prepared. I will also be asking my eldest girls what THEY want to do over the summer..... that way it isnt all on my shoulders!

rollmops I wouldnt have the sahm vs working mum debate because clearly one is no better than the other. But you were the one to say a child will grow up better with a parent at home. That is not true and you needed to be told.

So you started it, have a large helping of...meh.

Oh dear I thought this post was a joke.Upon reading it I can see that it isn't.

I would love to meet any parents who has never wished for even 1 day away from her child/children.

Is the sky the same colour on their planet?

Sorry Mrs WObble, x-posted with you up there and only just seen yours. You're right re spending time with family and friends, but unfortunately I don't know many other mums who don't work and the family who are nearby are not remotely supportive.

(I'd say fyimate was equally if not more nasty and abusive than the obviously barmy rollmops.)

I've also never been cop with teeny children and I've often thought it will be much easier when they are older and you can get out and do some really good engaging stuff with them. Not that I want to wish their lives away, and I'm sure every age brings it's own tricky stages, but I have a feeling I might come into my own in a few years time?

YANBU to feel that way. You don't necessarily have to act on those feelings though. Kids do change from day to day, sibling relationships evolve. Have a weekly plan, try to see other adults on a daily basis, even if it's just making small talk in the park. Make sure you find out everything being provided by your local authority over the summer.

I can sympathise with that. I like small babies I can cart around...and then nice 5yos you can talk to and do activities with. Preschoolers can be very sweet and adorable, but I'm shite at playing make believe, and that's all they ever want to do! I can manage a few puzzles and stories, but even that wears thin for them at some point and they want me to play mums and dads or shops or something and I just can't bring myself to do it!

And dads vs mums? I think it's the same as anything. Women think more than men (gross generalisation!) - they think about whether the bathroom's clean, they think about whether the kitchen is tidy, they think about what clean clothes they and everyone else will need over the next few days, they think about what to cook for dinner, and they think about what is best for their children. Men will think about it if asked to, but are, let's face it, a bit shit at remembering these things need to be thought about.

My husband is fantastic but only under my 'guidance' and reminders and hints about prioritising etc. It's not fair, but that's how it is.

My Dps would laugh out loud at the suggestion he might need my guidence.. he's the cleaner, tidier and organiser around here. I am the one who needs a little guidence... and I am still about 100 times tidier and 'OCD' than anyone I know when it comes to an orderly house.

YABU. They are 2 and 4 you need to be sorting out thier behavior with each other and giving them time. Don't just set up activities for them do stuff with them,

mumeeee - you are assuming (wrongly, as it happens) that I don't give my children time. I'm at home with them all day every day, I do lots of stuff with them. Doesn't mean I actively always enjoy it and I sometimes find it very tedious.

I phrased my OP badly but am still quite shocked at some of the totally anti WOHM statements that have been made, and the assumption that if you put your child into childcare through choice to allow you to go back to work you are a shit mother for dumping your kids on someone else.

I don't enjoy being at home with my children all day all the time because it can be really quite dull. If I was insanely happy abotu it all the time I'd probably have a good career ahead of me as a CBeebies presenter. Doesn't mean I don't love them, or shouldn't have had them.