to be really annoyed at people constantly assuming I've delayed having kids til my early forties because I have chosen a career 'instead'

[hairytriangle]

when nothing could be further from the truth?

it really grinds my gears when the assumption is that if you don't yet have kids, you've 'sacrificed' it to be a 'career woman'.

and

when people ask you why you haven't had kids - like it's not really personal and it's any of their business?

Well, am I?

Thumbwitch, I think you've hit the nail on the head.

My MIL said to me when I was expecting DC2 "Look at those huge breasts, fantastic to feed my grandson with". I nearly died on the spot with shock.

Previous generations thought nothing of commenting on weight, height, gender, age, apparent social class and all sorts. People are often more diplomatic and tolerant now, but still random thoughtless comments slip through the mental buffering system, I think.

I think underpinning it is a tacit mindset of "If I identify this as socially/biologically out of step, it means my own chosen course of actions are correct and I am socially dominant".

why does no one ever talk about "career men"??

why is it necessary to make such a distinction?

I haven't read all of the posts but totally agree with many which say that it is circumstances rather than choice for the majority of women. I have 2 good friends now in late 30s who are still single and both would dearly love children. I also have a good friend who has been married and TTC for years, as has my own sister. None of these people have 'chosen' their lack of children (all have good jobs but are not 'career' women) and I think its sad that people need to place labels like these when the individuals are probably emotionally scarred in one way or another by not being able to have children.

Msboogie so right! the same as when that small child was driven away from her parents home, and the press honed in on the mum, when the dad was there too!

I think it goes back to what another poster said earlier, it's a primeval fear of women and their amazing power to magically make human beings!

Am frequently asked if I wished I had had more (have one dc) and did I put my career first and now regret it.

I just say the truth, no I have a degenerative medical condition, had 5 miscarriages and had really given up thinking I would have kids - so when I finally managed to get pregnant, had the pregnancy from hell, beat the odds for genetic conditions and saw my own health deterioriate massively - I decided enough was enough.

One child with a mother is better than two with no mother.

Usually shuts everyone up.

It usually shuts people up when I announce I have one aged 20 and another aged 15 at home. Just because you're pushing a pram without another in tow, people assume he's the only one. he's just 4 months & everyone keeps saying -you'll have to have another to keep him company now! Can't win!!

I have a very good friend who has what would probably be termed a good career who frequently calls me in floods of tears saying how much she hates her job and just wants to meet someone and have a family. She hasn't chosen a career over kids and would gladly throw her career down the pan to have kids with the right person. She's in her early 30s so does have time yet (touch wood) but she can hear the clock ticking...I try to say what I hope are the right things about not working such long hours and getting out there and meeting people but it's harder than it sounds. She'd be a great mum too. I hope she gets a chance.

Agree with all the comments about how men's attitudes and behaviour are hugely important. I get irritated with all the "bugger all chance of conceiving after 35" stories, but I do think young women should be encouraged to value themselves and take a hard look at whatever relationships they are in from their late 20's, if they think they may have any interest in having children. Oddly, however, the press doesn't seem so keen to run "dump commitment phobes after 30" stories.

I put this off too long (35) and it's tough when you do. In cliche terms, you go from selfish career woman for saddo desperate singleton, driven by biological clock, overnight ... I made myself go out and date and was very lucky to meet DH at 38 and have DD by 40. But I met some stinkers along the way and I know I had a close shave. It really did feel sometimes like all the decent - ie responsible, pleasant - ones had gone. Because I was childless so long, I have quite a few friends my age who are not parents. Only one I know of is by choice. The availability of a suitable partner anytime from their late 20's has been much the biggest problem for the rest.

I so agreeOP
dh and I have been together for 20 odd years and are in our 40s. I work (sorry,am a career woman) dh works (sorry,is a man)
we have one Ds who is 4
why?
Because we spent years and years and years ttc
but of course most people think it's because I was selfish about my job, we wanted to go on expensive holidays etc
given that it was so emotionally stressful it almost shredded us and our whole lives to pieces, I find such assumptions and comments a bit much to bear

I am a mum of one (DS, aged 10). It amazes me that people feel they have the right to openly make statements regarding my single child - things along the line of: oh, you can afford to buy XXX for him as you only have the one; or so when are you having more; or why didn't you have more. Tbh I got so fed up I actually eventually responded by stating, fairly loudly, that having only one child was not a choice I made and that having lost two babies through ectopic pregnancies (the first one nearly killing me) I was bloody lucky to have my one son and that I had tried to have more but it just hadn't happened. It just stuns me that so many people feel they have the right to make comments without knowing the full facts. Things are rarely exactly as they appear to be and that childless woman you think has chosen her career over family may be the woman who desperately wishes she could have had them.

hairytriangle thanks for your feedback. I know it's sad and I probably sound as though I havn't got much of a life , but I always get a real thrill when someone acknowledges my post.

It just means that you have taken the time to read individual posts (not always possible I know due to time constraints and let's face it, sometimes boredom )

When DD has first DGD we were shopping (DD weas home with dad).

The lady at the checkout asked my DD how come she had a day off school. DD replied that she was at University and didn't have to attend that day.

The lady repaied "Goodness you don't look old enough to be at University".

When we left the store I said to DD. "Well lucky we didn't tell her that you have a baby at home"

There is a bit of a baby fixation in society, isn't there, though?

I mean - if you are married without DC, lots of people will ask/comment, some sensitively, some less so.
If you are single, there is a presumption that you are looking for a man to have DC with and people feel the need to comment
If you are quite young with a baby, people feel the need to comment (yes Coralanne, probably is lucky you didn't mention the baby!)
If you are old with a baby, people feel the need to comment
If you have only one DC (apparently) then people will ask when/if you're having another
If you have more than 3 DC people will comment on how many you have, my goodness, how do you cope?

Basically - you can't win unless you fit in with the societal norms of 2-3 DC that you had sometime between 26 and 35.

Sad, innit though - because it nearly all is aimed at the woman, presumably because we are the childbearers and there is this assumption that we all think about having babies all the time, from being about 4 until menopause - and then we think about having grandchildren.

Thing is though, there is still a significant percentage of women who do think like that, so the stereotype persists.

I love this thread! I thought women who were childless by choice - like me - bore the brunt of judgement ("you will change your mind", "you must be very selfish", "no one will take care of you when you're old", "your mum will be so sad you won't make her a grandmother!" etc, etc). This is already offensive enough.

But now I am learning that mums ALSO get judged! Why in Hell do people believe they have the right to question anyone about this very personal matter? Who is anyone to tell me or anyone else that they "SHOULD" have children and when? Never in my whole life did the thought of telling other people that they should or should not have children cross my mind...

What do people who say these things expect? Do they expect the other person to start having children straight away because they just got told to do it? Are they going to take care of the unwanted children they "helped produce"? It really is beyond me.

In my case, I have a career and I enjoy my work tremendously, But it had nothing to do with my decision of not having children. I don't have children because I never felt the urge to have them. The people who think it suitable to interrogate me about this decision and feel they have the right to tell me how wrong that decision is don't seem to get a simple fact: I believe having children is the most important decision in anybody's life. I believe I should have reasons TO have children, and very strong ones, before I take that decision. Not the other way around. The fact I was never interested tells me I shouldn't have children, because children should be wanted, relished and loved. I would never choose to have a child to make someone else happy, as that someone else is not going to be there to take care of that child when things go wrong.

I am lucky though, as people interfering with my private decision don't hurt me at all. I don't even want to consider how much people with infertility problems will suffer when questioned. How bloody insensitive.

"God didn't send them". Will try that one next time

Aurynne, at risk of upsetting you, can I just ask how old you are? THe only reason is because I never felt the urge to have children either. I wasn't sure I wanted them at all - but I did think if someone told me I couldn't have them, I'd probably be upset.

Really the biggest reason for me having my DS is because my DH wanted children - and I still wasn't convinced, even when I was pg, that I had done the "right thing". In fact, I phoned my Dad and my best friend on the day I went in to be induced in a flat panic that it was the stupidest mistake I had ever made - and then was DS was born, it all went away - all the doubt and everything. I wouldn't be without him now and we're even trying for another one! I didn't have DS until I was 40, so we're cutting it fine now (and had a MC late last year).

I am not in any way saying this is the case for everyone - nor necessarily for you either - just giving you my experience.

Thumbwitch, I found your post very cheering. I'm 35 and 30 weeks pregnant because DH has always wanted children - we've been married 15 years but it's taken till now for me to think it might be the right thing to have a baby, and I'm spending most of the time in an abject panic now - really anxious that I won't love the baby and I'll regret this for the rest of my life.

Oh, and I do have a career, not just a job, but I could certainly have had a baby sooner if I'd been sure it was the right thing for me. Fortunately I've been spared the crasser comments some people on here have had to endure!

Hi thumbwitch, I am 34, and no offence at all . My case is different to yours though... it's not that I never wasn't sure of having them... it's that I have ALWAYS been sure that children would never feature in my life. Even when I was a child and I wrote down the list of things I wanted to do in my life, having children wasn't ever there. I have never felt an iota of maternal instinct. I do like children, though, and I enjoy spending time with them... always giving them back at the end, that is.

I have been an egg donor in two occasions and I have held my biological daughter in my arms... and still did not want to have one myself.

I suppose it's not 100% impossible to change my mind... but I would consider it as improbable as a doting mother changing her mind about loving her child.

Fair play, I just wanted to share in case you were a "don't know".

Petsville - glad to have cheered you!

'Career women'; hate the phrase because it is generally used to imply that women are selfish.

Why is it selfish to work to support one's family if you are a woman, but a 'good thing' if you are a man.

I wasn't hugely happy with the latest research stating that the children of women who work tend to be more obese. Why is this not presented as the children of 'men at home' or where 'men work too hard'.

All research about families seems to be used to knock women's lives and not men's.

Hear hear, Builde - my job keeps a roof over all our heads and I don't view it as "selfish" for me to do it and give it a high priority. It's a bonus that I love it, but if I didn't I'd still have to do it: DH doesn't have the same earning power as I do.

Does anyone know this?

That the likelihood of miscarriage increases with men's age as much as it does with women's age.

But, men are never knocked by the Daily Mail for leaving it late...no, they are just virile.

Men are never knocked for leaving it late. Bloody media.

Is anyones business, i get constantly asked about when im going to give my five year old son company, I recently had M/c and it makes you reflect on things, your health and happiness. My son is a happy well adjusted little boy its not a serious injustice that he doesnt have a brother or sister yet. I wish people would just mind their own.

I'm the same age as aurynne and my sentiments are pretty much the same. My biological clock is resolutely silent.
I've had a number of gynae problems over the years and have recurring bouts of anxiety and depression which I feel for me personally are positive reasons NOT to have children (although i totally respect others who think differently). While I don't go around advertising my lack of inclination to reproduce I regularly encounter hostility from female colleagues with kids who are take it as something of a personal affront that I don't want the same thing - If i had a pound for everyone who said 'ooh you'll change your mind when you meet the right man' and 'you've got plenty of time yet' I'd be a rich woman!

auryanne and muddlinleigh - i completely see this side of the story.
when i was in my late 20s i was in a conversation with a lady who had "left it late". i had always maintained that i never wanted children of my own. she said that she'd been the same, but she'd hit a certain age and decided that she really really did want children. she was lucky enough to have two.
i got to 30 and had that same feeling, but even now, i'm not convinced that that's really what i definitely want.
(i'm 34 now)
my own picture from when i was young was that i would like to foster or adopt, rather than giving birth (because ow! and yuck!)

now haven't a clue what will happen.
i think adoption relies on both partners being younger than 65 on the child's 18 birthday (DF is 49 now, so it couldn't be a baby)
but could i cope with fostering? especially if the child has a difficult history.

it's such a tricky subject, i really do think it shocking that so many people feel they can put it into "do you wnt to, don't you want to?"

V true Toddlershambles. I met dh in my late twenies and we had our first ds at 32. For various reasons I had my others in my late thirties. However I have friends who suddenly in their mid thirties started hoping to meet men to settle and have kids with. Some were lucky others are still looking. Its about time society took all the pressure of women for a change in the whole child bearing/rearing issue.

nickelbabe, maybe try what I did - if someone told you tomorrow that you couldn't have kids ever, how would you feel? Sometimes the negative has far more impact on the psyche than the positive.
And I felt the same about giving birth - had to have hypnobirthing to take away The Fear - but it really helped.

HOwever - I am NOT trying to influence you, just offering my experience.