to be really annoyed at people constantly assuming I've delayed having kids til my early forties because I have chosen a career 'instead'

[hairytriangle]

when nothing could be further from the truth?

it really grinds my gears when the assumption is that if you don't yet have kids, you've 'sacrificed' it to be a 'career woman'.

and

when people ask you why you haven't had kids - like it's not really personal and it's any of their business?

Well, am I?

Duellingfanjo, do you think you should have left your ex earlier when it was obvious he did not have your sense of urgency for dcs.

It is not an easy call, if everything else is fine.

Had a similar conversation with some of my friends ages ago and remember one of the guys saying that the reason men don't commit is the simple fact that they don't love the woman in question enough. The rest of the men present agreed.......... They all admitted that it's a cowardly and pathetic way to carry on a relationship that's doomed to go nowhere, nevertheless, unanimously declared that this is how 'men' really think. Pretty shocking considering that most of them would happily cohabit with a woman for years all along knowing they will never commit to her.
Don't love her enough.
Yet, apparently once they meet the 'right' one, they'd be ready to ask for the hand and heart on spot.

'It is not an easy call, if everything else is fine.'

It isn't.

Everything else was fine in our relationship.

We had a lovely life.

But I knew one too many women who got 'maybe next year' 'the timing's not right' 'i'm not ready' over and over.

And they missed their chance.

I went out with a man, after my separation, who was one of those timing people.

I left the country to break free.

9 years later, well, he married a young woman, just turned 30.

He's still childfree and acting like a kid.

He's 40 now.

'nevertheless, unanimously declared that this is how 'men' really think.'

Nah, that's how dickheads think.

There are plenty of men out there who'd never do that to someone because they wouldn't want someone to do that to them.

For me, it involved broadening my horizons.

Before, I'd never have thought to go out with men who hadn't been to university, or in a 'professional' type job, or younger men, etc.

Then I thought, how stupid! The world is full of blokes!

Well, I love men! Been lucky enough to have had fabulous individuals in my life.
I wouldn't say that the men I spoke to that time were 'dickheads', not at all.
All of them are now happily married to women they really love and are committed fathers.
They were honest and knew that such brutal honesty would draw female wrath in general.
There are soooo many relationships of convenience. If as a woman you desperately want to have a family, you need to be prepared to walk away from a man who is not willing to make the same kind of commitment to your relationship. Waiting around won't make him change his mind....
Of course, talking babies on the second date would make anyone run for the hills ( made me, my date was discussing the prep schools and proper golf clubs for our sons and sailing lessons ..... on second date)

'They were honest and knew that such brutal honesty would draw female wrath in general.'

I love men, too.

If they were honest the woman would have left them. Staying in a 'relationship of convenience' when you know the woman wanted more is twattish. Of course, she also should have upped and left and not been strung along. But stringing someone along isn't lovely at all.

Honest people, lovely people don't do this to other people so they can continue getting sex and their clothes washed, male or female.

Regardless of how you want to label men who stay in relationships of convenience, I agree with rollmops that the onus is on women to be strong enough to walk away from men who don't step up to the plate for whatever reason.

It is good to pinpoint what is really important to you (whether that be marriage or children) and lay down the law before it is too late.

Men don't have that sense of urgency because they are not as biologically hamstrung as women. But women can always vote with their feet.

expatinscotland, if my memory serves me right, I don't think any of them were in long term relationship at the time. It was very much a 'party season' for most of us...
They were talking about men in general and gave some 'deep insights' to men's psyche...

This thread is hilarious - we stopped TTC because I got made redundant. Unless you're prepared to bring your children up on benefits, you need a job! Men are not reliable enough in that department lol.

Sorry if late on this thread, but totally agree with flimflammum. Two kids finally at 38 and 40, worked with kids all life, was assumed i was either gay, commitphobe, a bit 'dodgy!' career minded(not sure which worse!!!) Fact was, had some rubbish relationships, all longlasting which took up my 20's and 30's, didn't want a child at any cost, wanted a stable home. Now have two gorgeous DD's, am stable, and luckily financially secure, thanks to unhappy life experiences.Remember after just splitting with love of my life being told if I want children 'I'd better get on with it' (was 34) Realistically, what did people want me to do do? Go and get pregnant with some random stranger? Magic up the relationship I had been looking for? I hate those comments, and wish I had the answers then, or now...

bloody well said.

sorry, that was in response to expat's 9.58 post

It's interesting that so many women do not feel a choice. I think that most of us have some sort of sex life before our late 30s. I think I would have made an appalling mother when I was younger and the thought of bringing a new person into my world was just cruel. The things that led me to feel like this were not of my making, but still what I had to deal with. I would have loved to have felt loved and wanted earlier in my life.

When my mum was 18, she was married and pregnant with me. She was in the same situation as all her friends. But she was separated at 25 and life was tough financially.
So this meant that she drilled into me growing up that I should wait until I'm older to have children, and to live with a guy for years before you have children and make sure you have a career etc etc
It was the same with the media, my friends and the "political" vibe at the time.
So that definitely put me off having a baby in my 20s.
I also agree with other posters about men being reluctant to start a family being a huge factor.

I feel ready at 36 to start a family, because my relationship feels stable and I am financially stable but thank goodness I have been able to get pregnant; I feel incredibly lucky and I hope it works out.

"do you think you should have left your ex earlier" in hindsight, yes. But at the time I thought making it work was more important.

I was brought up in a pretty remote area and the men around me were mostly into ropin', brandin' and fartin'. No boyfriends throughout my early 20s and EVERYONE, including parents assumed i was a lesbian. (Would have had much better options if I were). Met DH mid 30s started to ttc and now expecting our first, and feel so lucky that we are. But people are already asking me about when we will try for a second (to which i reply, 'one at a time, one at a time'). I find the intrusiveness of people to be extraordinary. I was assumed to be a lesbian, then a career woman, yet the reality was that I had not met anyone I would want to have a child with. But, I am enarly 40, DH is alot older than me, and we have been met with accusations that we are selfish to have children, and also with accusations that we are selfish to be thinking of only one. (It was hard enough conceiving this one!). You cannot win, so I guess the only thing is to make sure you are comfortable and secure with your own choices. That said, the accusation that women are 'career women' or selfish or whatever to not have children makes me feel murderous rage. Because right... people's lives fall into neat little timetables.

Its very much a media construct that "career women delay having kids" - expect to hear the work "selfish" in the same article.

Reality is that most of us are looking for a good relationship and some financial stability before we start a family - not the same thing at all.

Women can't win.

If we have kids young, we're "feckless" possibly sponging of the state too.

If we have them later we're selfish career women...

Just please yourself and sod the rest,

I don't think people should worry about what other people think so much.

Who are these people (usually women sad to say) who feel it at all acceptable to comment about such personal matters - often to others who are practically strangers, or acquaintances at best ? You wouldn't even say such things to a friend would you ? (you'd wait for a friend to raise the subject - if they wanteed to).

I had my 1st child at 25 and my 2nd at almost 39. I would have loved to have had another but have had 3 m/cs, and I would also have loved to have had my children close together so my childrearing years weren't so prolonged. However, as so many of you have said, circumstances simply weren't right and I was never in a position (financially or relationship-wise) to have a 2nd child for all those years in between. It had nothing to do with a fantastic career - though I wish it had ! - but whatever, those reasons were personal to me. I too have had raised eyebrows and tactless remarks about "leaving it so long", or, the best one "depriving" my son of a sibling. Oh yeah - and the inevitable rude comments about how you will die young and leave your child bereft with no-one to care for them. These people just don't think ..... the absence of a child could be due to heartbreak (fertility problems or bad/abusive relationship(s)) or, even, shock horror, good old fashioned financial common sense because you've worked out - shatteringly - that you literally can't afford to stop work - even for a few months - to have a child (not all of us earn enough to pay for FT childcare).

In MY (emphasise my) experience, these kind of crass remarks came from 2 distinct sorts: either the incredibly smug landed-on-their-feet-lucky-in-love-and-have-absolutelty-no-money-or-housing-issues type who don't appreciate just how lucky they are, or (and I know I'm taking my life in my hands by saying this) some people on benefits whose day to day life won't be adversely affected by having another child (because there's no job, and therefore no childcare to consider) and who therefore can't see why you can't do it if they can ! Both groups completely lack empathy with others as well as good manners, and both also completely disregard fertility issues.

This is an interesting thread for me to read as now I'm 30 I've started to get the occasional comment about kids. But I have a slightly different situation to most in that I don't want children, but of course everyone assumes that all women want children. I liked the suggestion of the poster who said 'God hasn't sent them', as an atheist I must remember to try that. When I do say I don't want them, I usually get 'oh, you're young yet, you'll change your mind'. Of course I know that it's possible I may change my mind, however as I have never ever wanted kids, and never felt broody, I think it's unlikely.

I echo other posters who say that it's important to sort out your priorities early on in a relationship. I knew a previous relationship of mine would never have worked out as he wanted kids one day and I didn't. (He's also in the camp of not getting on with it I think. He's now 40, wants kids, but is not interested in trying to find himself a lady). With my current boyfriend we had a chat early on his views on kids and he also doesn't want them, which is all good .

I feel so bad for people who are having a hard time TTC who get folk asking why they haven't had kids yet

True, Amerliameerkat, some people just do not WANT children, and that is fine too! (although judged again!). My bestfriend most emphatically does NOT want children. No-one believes her. She has been married for 16-17 years, and it is a bit of a mismatch in that they can barely stand to be in the same room as each other but neither will leave, and my mother whenever she asks about 'poor [bestfriend] ' repeatedly tut tuts and says 'well, she needs to leave now if she is ever to have the chance for children'. I keep saying 'She does not WANT them, mum' but no-one believes me or her!

Not wanting children is a perfectly valid choice also, but is met with either hostility (too selfish) or pity (in denial).

DuellingFanjo - you had exactly the same situation as me - except i thought (foolishly) that when he grew up a bit he would decide to commit to having children.
no, he didn't, it put a huge wall between us (something he refused to see).
i've not left it as late as you, but i might as well have, because i opened my shop partly as a way of putting this children thing out of my mind. it's still in its baby-stages, so i can't risk starting to ttc with DF. and he's 48 (i'm 34, so fingers crossed still got some time)
but i feel like i wasted 9 years of my fertile life waiting for ex to decide that he wanted the same as me.

(and i got the same response when i told him it was all over and i was moving out "please stay, i'll forgive you for going off with him, we can buy a house and get married and have children" (there was a leeeetle tiny 4 week overlap) too late, i want to have a life.)

I was married 15 years before getting pregnant, when people asked me I just said that I was thinking about it. This way I didn't answer the question and it discouraged more questions (I found, others may not find this).

But yes it is quite nosey especially considering it may be because a couple are struggling to get pregnant, quite an insensitive prying question.

btw re men, I didn't say all men are dickwads/commitment-phobes, not at all - I love men too and I know some great ones. I even know one or two lovely men who can't wait to settle down and have babies.

My point was just that a lot of the times "women leave it so late" to TTC is because of men dragging their feet, not women's careers.

I do think it's very important for women to value themselves enough not to put up with immature, inconsiderate men or stay with an awful man just for fear of being alone, when there are good men out there. But with some men, they really are to blame for deliberately giving women the wrong idea.

One I know is a sweet bloke, he's charming and very attractive. BUT for the past 15 years he has strung along a series of women, all of whom loved him and wanted serious commitment and kids, and he resisted as he was never really that into any of them, but was too "nice" to end it - whenever they tried to end it, he begged them not to and promised he'd change, because he didn't like being dumped. Finally they would always break free but having lost several of their childbearing years (in some cases their last chance). For him it's no problem, onto the next one. For them it was a huge investment in a relationship they thought would be permanent, only to be messed around.

It's bloody hard for women dealing with men like this because you are also aware that you need to build a strong relationship to bring children into and that he might come around to the idea - as some men do.