to not want a male worker to take my daughter to the toilet?

[DebiDean]

Hi there,

My daughter wet herself in the nursery toilets yesterday, when I asked her about it at dinner she mentioned that it was a male worker who took her to the toilet. I spoke to a few friends about it who had different opinions about whether it was right or wrong (opinion was a 50/50 split!) and I decided that as I wasn't comfortable with the idea that I would contact the nursery and explain that I would rather a female worker take her to the toilet.

I was very clear with the nursery that I was supportive of having male role models within the nursery however I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet.

I had a rather rude reply accusing me of being discriminative and that they would refuse to discriminate against him.

I was so shocked as I do support men working with children, but felt there should be limitations within that, or the nursery should at least consider my wishes (especially as it costs me £45 a day!!!).

Whats the opinion? Any ideas of what I could/should do?

OP, you didn't say you had a problem with the nursery worker because he was a "stranger". The problem, as you set it out, was because he was male.

I happen to think that that is an unreasonable attitude to take, and that it is a damaging thing to teach a child. Dignity doesn't have anything to do with the gender of the person dealing with you, however personal the issue is. It's about how they treat you.

You may want to consider whether you are treating this nursery worker with dignity. £45 a day doesn't mean that you can treat a worker as less deserving of consideration because of his gender.

Debi - if my daughters had been unhappy with having a male accompany them to the toilet I would have gone to the nursery and discussed it.

I give 4 yr olds the same respect as my 14 yr old or my 40 yr old self... which is to feel comfortable with whoever they are with.

I think you have described a situation which made you/her uncomfortable and needs addressing. How it is addressed is the issue. It is U to suggest same sex care only is expected because in a nursery setting -that is impractical.

If your daughter had an issue with a female that made her uncomfortable I am sure you'd tackle it differently. I would have thought putting children first in this, is far more important than the rights of nursery workers or mums/dads. I would never ever tell my children they must allow someone access to them in an intimate moment. No one. Not even me.

But a compromise where by the child is given privacy yet assisted could be reached?

can you expalin, gichin, why a male carer would impact on a female's dignity? without calling people wierdos

thanks

if a carer, whether a nursery nurse, nurse, doctor , midwife etc treats someone with anything other than dignity and repsect then that is bad bad news.

assuming a male taking a 4 year old to the toilet impacts on their dignity without any reason why is a bit off

But if the issue is primarilythat your DD did not know the worker, why does his gender matter.

Seperate toilets matter for adults because the issue of dignity/sexuality/privacy etc does become an issue.

But tiny children should see their bodies as fantastic things, they should be paddling naked and not have issues of dignity and privacy in their heads yet because they are truly innocent.

I was abused. My gift to my daughter is to make her adore herself and value every wonderful thing about herself without shame or fear. I would be worried if at 4 she felt the need to be private about having a pee. I would worry why she felt like that.

See Debi with that info it makes you think.

Abuse with a male - so you are bound to feel protective wary etc.
Perhaps a deeper seated issue here??

Room with old family friends thats why we chose it - you felt your daughter would be safe and protected with people she knew.

Fair enough your decision but she will not know the teacher that well september when she starts school so what will she do then??

Yes, school have an introduction process but in all honesty the number of children and short intro sessions means realistically she will prob have spent 1/2 hr max with teacher the first time she needs to pee??

Are you absolutly sure DD school teacher will not be male???

I have to ask as well - purely outta interest- do you think I should send my DS 5 abroad to live with his dad so he doesn't have to suffer the 'indignity' of me helping bathe, dress wash him??

Many children are more wary of men, it's an instinct thing or maybe a familiarity thing.

In a nursery, that was looking after my children, I would be a little peeved if anyone (male/female) other than their careworker took them to the toilet when they had wet themselves. I think children should be allowed to stick to specific boundaries so they are not vulnerable in other situations. Protecting their modesty and acceptable parameters should start with who they undress in front of.

Gichin,

you were 'shocked' that your grandmother was visited by a male carer. May I ask why?

As I said before, men do not have the luxury of refusing female carers, so why should it be any different for women?

I think if you are uncomfortable with it then approach the nursery again and try to have a face to face talk with the manager because it's your child at the end of the day. Perhaps you might end up thinking it's ok, or perhaps you will still feel uncomfortable but either way you can then make an informed decision.

If the nursery has employed male staff then I can see no reason why they should not carry out all of the duties a woman would because they are vetted to work there just the same. But if you mean just that it's traditionally not 'right' for a guy to accompany a girl to the loo then that is your personal opinion and the nursery is within rights to carry on with it's policy.

That said I don't think you should be vilified for feeling uncomfortable about it, it doesn't mean you're on a witch hunt or anything. And the nursery should have been more proactive and invited you in for a chat and introduce you to the guy and let you make a decision on whether you wanted your child to stay there.

are you taking your daughter out of nursery then, OP ?

Fair point about female worker/stranger lulumaam - I suppose my 90% issue is more about the nursery allowing staff unknown to my child filter in and out, and I suppose due to the circumstances of how it came to light I directed my feelings towards his gender.

10% of me does also believe that an elderly person in a home or someone like my niece who is extremely autistic and requires a high amount of care, automatically gets the dignity of same sex intimate care unless in case of emergancy. Even my local tescos informs you if there is a male cleaner on duty so you can make the choice. It is all about choice, I expressed a wish which the nursery refused to even discuss with me and just assumed that any feeling toward intimate care between a male worker/female child would be about incinuating a concern about abuse!

perhaps, if you did not explain things to the nursery, as you did not fully explain in your OP, they had the same reaction we did?

DD will have a care worker, but it is unrealistic to expct that she will know and have a bond and strong relationship with every other care giver

perhaps a Childminder would be a more appropraite setting for her?

and she'll be at school in september too

DebiDean - you are pregnant with a boy? How will you feel about a female nursery worker taking him to the toilet? After all with a boy this is often an act that required flashing more private bits around than it is with a little girl. How will you preserve his dignity at nursery?

I know you say you do not think you are worried about abuse. So, what are you worried about? What do you think will happen if a male worker takes your DD to the toilet? Surely this would be exactly the same for a female taking a little boy to the loo.

Wpld your DD also react this way - scared enough to wet herself - if another female staff (one not from her room) took her to the toilet?

anyf**ker - I have said I am not concerned about abuse from her nursery so no I am not taking her out.

Mumbar - I have 2 dates in my diary to get to know her teacher from september, and there are 2 dates for her to get to know her teacher too (1st date with my attendance also). Thus she will know her teacher

Did the OP clarify whether it was because she has a DD? I mean, would she have actively sought out a nursery with a male member of staff for her son? Given the extremely low number of male nursery workers you'd be lucky to find one. Even if you did, should he leave his post every time your DS needs a nappy change?

I know only one male reception teacher. He is fantastic. He is also gay and I know he worries endlessly about the day some narrow minded parent decides that means he's a threat to their son. I also know a Y2 teacher who would love to teach Reception but never will. He is a straight, married father of two. He worries that parents such as the OP would assume nasty things or start nasty rumours. How ridiculous thta these two well qualified professionals should feel anxious about doing their job.

My son is severely autistic. No one is more concerned about dignity in care than me.

But dignity and peeing four years olds do not sit comfortably in the same sentence for me.

My eldest son is interested in support work for children with ASD and other disabilities.
He is only 16 and helps at a local disability playgroup. It would be immensely disheartening for him to hear that his presence aroundthe younger children would be queried as an affront to a childs dignity.

That type of attitude will make young men like him less keen to do that kind of work. And young people need male workers in these areas - care and education.

At most nurseries there is some staff movement, especialy when there is staff absence, etc. Your little girl will be off to school very soon - the change over of staff will be even more likely, with supply staff coming and going throughout the time. If your DD has an accident, spills stuff on herself, wets herself, etc. then any of these staff may take her to the toilets to help her change into spare clothes as required.

I think there is something really warped in thinking that a little girl, who is not sexual in any way, is having her dignity compromised by being taken to the loo by a male carer. You're implying she's been humiliated in some way and projecting a sexuality onto her that I sincerely hope isn't there

But you have to have your right child: adult ratios. So if another adult (the male worker) was already in the toilets helping somebody else, the logical thing to do if your daughter needs to go is shuttle her along into the toilets with him.
At the pre school I worked in, I would busy myself filling the basin with warm water whilst the child was in the toilet and then have idle chitchat whilst they were weeing. Then they would appear and wash hands. Most didn't push the door to, so I would lol casually against the wall side on to them and look at myself in the mirror !

The OP said she was unhappy about a man helping her daughter in the loo. YABU.
The OP then said it was her daughter who wasn't happy with the man helping her, in which case, YANBU.
Then it became about dignity. All living things should be treated with dignity. In the case of a 4 year old the staff member should probably loiter just outside the toilet ready to give help if it's asked for.
I doubt the male member of staff will be all that bothered about the opinion of DebiDean. For every parent who thinks men in nurseries are something to be weary of there are dozens who will think it's fantastic and will tell him so.

Jesus. I'm assuming everyone has already told you YABVU.

What hope is there for finding good role models in schools and nurseries with attitudes like this?

Debi...why do you keep referring to your niece ?

this is about your child, isn't it ?

Your view is very strange and that is why people are still posting.

Applying your rationale boys would only be supervised in the toilet by a male in order to maintain their "dignity".

Is it beneath my dignity to see a male doctor, consultant, surgeon, midwife, nurse, paramedic or carer? Of course not, provided they care for me.

You are passing your hang ups onto your family.

4 years old and dignity don't really go together. If your daughter was wary it is because you said he normally works in another class so she didn't know him not because he is male and certainly not because of dignity.

There is a huge difference between an old woman and a 4 year old child. An adults way of thinking is in no way comparable to an adult even if she is elderly.