to not want a male worker to take my daughter to the toilet?

[DebiDean]

Hi there,

My daughter wet herself in the nursery toilets yesterday, when I asked her about it at dinner she mentioned that it was a male worker who took her to the toilet. I spoke to a few friends about it who had different opinions about whether it was right or wrong (opinion was a 50/50 split!) and I decided that as I wasn't comfortable with the idea that I would contact the nursery and explain that I would rather a female worker take her to the toilet.

I was very clear with the nursery that I was supportive of having male role models within the nursery however I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet.

I had a rather rude reply accusing me of being discriminative and that they would refuse to discriminate against him.

I was so shocked as I do support men working with children, but felt there should be limitations within that, or the nursery should at least consider my wishes (especially as it costs me £45 a day!!!).

Whats the opinion? Any ideas of what I could/should do?

'I felt that to maintain my daughters dignity it would be more appropriate for a female worker to take her to the toilet'

How old is DD? I could understand(ish) if she was a 16 year old disabled girl, but the word 'dignity' used here is a bit odd.

Most little children would happily run around in the nude in public.

herbietea,I was just about to post exactly the same thing!

When DD was little we knew a young man who was training to be a nursery nurse(the friend of a friend).He was lovely,he was brilliant with DD and I had no hesitation about letting him look after her.
I don't think you can go through life not trusting anyone - that is worse than some of the things you are trying to safeguard against.

posie/Jamki - I am offended by your posts.

However, I also know perfectly well that there are a significant minority of people in society who feel the way you do about men.

The story that Disenchanted3 told about her husband filming struck a chord. I would react the same way because of the way that men are viewed.

I always make sure I am never alone with another persons child. Our DS had a party a few weeks ago and always asked my wife to take children to the toilet if any child asked. If I see a child lost or in distress in a public place I never approach them but always enlist the help of a woman (eg shop assistant or mother with children passing by).

I am soon going to be taking up some part time teaching in a university, a job I used to do, and I always avoid being alone with female students because of the way some people think about men.

It doesn't ruin my life or weigh on my mind particularly but I still find it offensive that some people view me with suspicion just because I am a man.

this thread has terrified me! had better run home before DH has the chance to change another nappy or take DD to the toilet... you can never be too careful, right?

Riven, where do you live, I want to move there! You make demands for a female gynaecologist and you're heard? They'd tell me to stuff it lodon. And how about labour, did you get to pick? Not being ironic here, honestly, I just didn't get this sort of treatment from the NHS and I thought you just can't. Although I don't really care, after I got fisted by half the staff in UCLH with my first I've been desensitised...

Am still waiting to hear how posie's dh is proposing to safeguard his children.

Agree with Posie.

I would never have let a male nursery worker take my dd to the toilet alone.

It's just not worth the risk

I have always been terrified of men and hated them. Part of it is an emotionally and physically abusive father, but a far larger part was from my mother who was and is still afraid of/ mistrusting towards men - and she got that from HER mother, who got it from HER mother who was raped while in service in the early 20th century.

It's poisonous, and I am doing my best to ensure my DD does not feel the same - but at the same time, I can never accept a male carer for my babies, or a male MW or gynaecologist for myself. Irrational, bordering on phobic, but it has proven impossible for my beliefs and principles to override the sheer panic response I have.

I was sexually assaulted by a man when I was a child, been flashed at as a child twice, have been molested by strangers at least three times and raped twice. And I still think this is blatant discrimination and an appalling message to give children.

Decisions about children's safety should be made on the basis of likely risk, not kneejerk paranoia. I am sick to death of women thinking all men who work with children are probably paedophiles. It's appalling discrimination.

I am so sad to read Beta's post. What an awful state , in which a man fears being alone with someone elses child. I, as do many of you, look after my friends children for hours, whilst she ... goes to the GP etc. And the thought of MEN feeling this way is sad.

And those that do feeel this way,- posie, biscuit, weehag and many others, whether you have been abused , or not, yourself. are you still having counselling ? are you addressing your paranoia and trying to get more balance ? you affect how children feel. that has to be on your mind, no ?

Its no good saying, oh i feel this way. it may be silly, irrational, but its how i feel. so that's o.k. then ?
errr. no, its not. you need to address this.
I have irrational views and judgemets. and i know i'm being silly. but thats how i feel. oh, thats o.k. then

errr. NO. ITS NOT.

oh i'm really sorry. I don't know why this thread has touched such a nerve in me. why has it upset me so much?

Maybe its because i feel the polar opposite to these views. i often feel quite differently to most Mn'ers. i find them over-cautious. I am probably verging on too much benign neglect.
Oh I so dislike the culture/mentality/etc/etc that we are bringing our children up in, now.
Child is king. PFB. Paranoia aand fear. Helicopter-parenting.
And a generation of mums and dads who don't have a clue about parenting. 'oh i don't want to say no, becasue then they won't love me', aka supernanny or dr tanya's house.
And then I come on a thread like this , that confirms this all to me. And wonder what are we doing here ? to our children ?
we seem to have swung from a generation where the child was 'seen and not heard' and often smacked and beaten, to this over protective parenting. and the paranoia. that comes with it.
God, I hope we drift back to some happy medium. back to the middle, rather than being on the extreme of parenting, as it would appear that this is where we are now.

please ignore thta last paragraph. it was for my own benefit that i wrote it down.

I'm with those that agree OP is BU.

What i want to ask is why is the male member of staff a stranger but a female who also isn't in the DD's room not??

Surely children know all nursery staff from luch, snack, whole nursery get together times. And from when staff are sick, at lunch, on holiday or at a training course.

IME when you are sat at a table at dinner time face to face with a child who can't escape. questioning them about something that happened 2,3,4 or 5+ hours before, that they are probably embarrssed about, you will lead them to give you a reason.

questions such as?

1)why did you wet yourself??
2) who took you to the tiolet??
3) why didn't mes x the keyworker take you??

I truly beleive if Debis DD was really very upset about this she would have been in tears when she picked her up and said it then. NOT waited to mum who's embarrssed about 4 1/2 child wetting themself to say something.

Ladybiscuit very well put.

I think MrsBean has said how I feel far more eloquently than I could. It is the elephant in this particular thread that men are far more likely to abuse than women.

I don't mind people challenging my views at all, we're having a discussion, that's fine. I am interested though in why some people keep saying 'oh with Riven its different' Why? Because you know, like and respect Riven? Because of disability being involved? Her daughter is only a matter of months older than mine (I believe) so I can't see the difference. I think if you say mine, ops, posie's, mrsbean's and a couple of others attitudes are wrong, then you should say Riven's is too, and its interesting that you don't.

We have had abuse in dh's family, an older male relative. Do I leave dd alone with close male relatives? Yes, I grew up with my dad and brother and therefore know (as much as anyone can know I suppose) that they are not abusers. I cannot say the same about a man at nursery as I do not know him.

Mrsbean78 - Touche

Do you mean me Oblomov when you say Biscuit? I am firmly of the view that the OP is BU! I was just giving a list of all the things that have happened to me that mean I could be paranoid about leaving my DC with a male nursery worker but I am not remotely. What has happened in my life is no reason to discriminate against most men who aren't rampant paedophiles

Don't know if OP is still reading but:
I think YANBU.

I remember being shy and easily embarrassed when I was little.
Went swimming with school (primary age, probably a bit older than 4 though), and there was a mum with her little boy in the changing rooms.
I couldn't get changed, was too embarrassed. I couldn't even admit the reason and pretended to be ill and missed swimming.

I wouldn't have been able to go the loo with a male teacher outside. Even with closed cubicle door.

Isn't this about the OP's daughters feelings, not the OP's?

hear,hear Oblomov!

Particularly this bit "I have irrational views and judgemets. and i know i'm being silly. but thats how i feel. oh, thats o.k. then

errr. NO. ITS NOT."

And this bit!
"we seem to have swung from a generation where the child was 'seen and not heard' and often smacked and beaten, to this over protective parenting. and the paranoia. that comes with it."

Actually I do feel differently about Riven's DD because she is non-verbal,and not in a position to run,shout,any of the things I'd have expected my DCs to do in a childcare setting if something upset them,or to tell afterwards.
That might be irrational too,though.

sorry biscuit. i got the names mixed up. muffin, hag, .... then i added in bisuit, there. sorry.

actually I'm stepping out now as this thread is obviously so hilarious its spawned a piss take in AIBU, 'oh how edgy to laugh about child abuse yay!'

I thought people were actually having an interesting discussion and I felt I was gaining from reading both sides but obviously not.

Just a thought but are sex offenders predominantly male, or is it that those that are caught are predominantly male?
We as a society view woman as caring, automatically and so does this give some who have ulterior motives a cover to carry on doing what they are doing.

Jamiki/TheShreikingHarpy - Regarding "Sex offenders are PREDOMINANTLY male, not female therefore if your child is going to be tampered with there is a upwards of 75% chance it will be by a male."

This statistic is completly useless in terms of assessing risk. It is an example of the Prosecutor's fallacy. The probablility that an offender is of one gender or the other says nothing about the probability of someone of a particular gender being an abuser or not.

A sensible risk assesment would look at the risk of a child being abused with or without male carers being present.

The overwhelming factor in preventing abuse in care enviroments will be the quality of the safeguarding and monitoring procedures, not the gender of the carers.

LadyBiscuit- everyone knows that the abuser is usually known to the victim and is yes often in the home,

yes,

does that mean we are to be overly wary of those individuals but show no scrutiny to strangers (men or women you do not know) who can quite likely end up in a situation with your DC and dealing with their genitals ???

Pigletmania - I did not say that women do not abuse children, I said for every 1 woman charged there will be 8 or 9 men charged. This equates to the fact that if your child is sexually abused by a stranger it is 90% more likely to be a man than a woman.

Dealing with facts is not scaremongering.

I think it's very worrying that your DD is so frightened of an unfamiliar adult within her nursery setting (whether it be male or female) that she wets herself.

@Jamiki, you contradicting yourself. 8-9 men may be CHARGED but that doesn't mean that 10-11 women aren't going UNCHARGED.
Women abuse in different ways to men, in fact women are less likely to be caught until the children are adults because of the way they abuse. It's more about 'punishment' in some ways than about sexual gratification.

Statistically jamiki you cannot draw the conclusion that if your child is abused by a stranger there is a 90% chance that stranger will be male.

Overall an abuser is 90% likely to be male. But given that the vast vast vast majority of abuse is committed by those known to the victim, the number of stranger-led abuses is so statistically low as a percentage of the abuser-population you cannot draw that conclusion accurately.

Sorry, Maths pedant