To expect the Doctor to respect my wishes?

[loumum3]

I have not vaccinated my youngest child. I have done this after much research and made an informed decision. The Doctor's surgery has phoned me several times now and written requesting I go in for a discussion about this. I haven't got time for a visit to discuss this, nor do I want to so I said if I had to, I could talk about it on the phone....I have had the Doctor on the phone this afternoon grilling me about my choices, really trying to scare me into having the jabs done and trying to make me feel bad. She cannot see my point of view at all and has been very rude.

Is is really too much to expect a Doctor to respect the decisions I make about my own children ?

Has anyone else experienced this ?

The risks of childhood disease are not exaggerated! That is a really stupid statement to make.

Tetanus at any age kills 4 in 10
Measles kills 1 in 5000 in the UK
Diptheria kills in between 10 and 20% of cases.
Estimated annual deaths due to whooping cough is 600,000
Hib meningitis kills between 2-6% of cases
Meningitis C - death rate of about 10%

That's leaving aside all the KNOWN after effects and complications of these unpleasant illnesses.

Leonie - antibiotics may be used to assist in the treatment of tetanus but the first line treatment is the vaccine. Tetanus sets in some time after the injury and the patient may not realise they are at risk or are becoming ill.

In the years I've been on mnet I've seen quite a few vaccination threads and those who don't vaccinate always seem to expect some sort of immunity from challenge. You've made your (always impeccably researched) choice and you really expect as long as you brandish your unique family circumstances and superior judgement around, those of us who disagree will just pack up. I have no wish to be offensive or argumentative for the sake of it - but you are wrong and you are risking the safety of your children - not just in childhood but for the rest of their lives.

It's an interesting notion that people who have never laid eyes on, never mind met, taught or examined children who the parents report to have regressed, are nevertheless able to say with certainty that the children did not suffer a regression due to vaccination.

An impressive level of psychic medical ability. Or maybe they're relying on doctors and scientists who have never laid eyes on, never mind met, taught or examined these children.

What made you believe parents are so stupid? So deluded? What makes you think they push themselves into believing it was a decision they made that damaged their child? Why do you have so little respect for mothers and their judgment when it comes to this?

We do not know what causes autism. We do not know what causes many auto-immune illnesses. We know that something happens and vaccines are a plausible fall-guy - but that doesn't mean it happened that way.
As is often said - the plural of anecdote is not data - many parents saying they know when a change took place is not proof of anything - either relating to their child or more broadly. You may well say that is arrogant. If arrogant means a disinclination to accept a recalled perception as absolute proof - yup i'm arrogant.

Er.....who exactly is 'brandishing superior judgement' Northernlurker?

At what point have I made the assertion that you are wrong??

Luckily I respect other people's points of view but nobody seems to have any sensible reactions to my (reasonable imo) concerns. And nobody has said anything which would help me reassess my concerns about how the government runs vaccination programs. I'm quite open to such suggestions but all I've seen so far are vague insults.

Yes you certainly are!

It's not proof but it deserves researching, not to be dismissed out of hand.

Do you know, all the time that MMR case was proceeding, and the parents offered to allow their children to be examined by the medical authorities, this was refused?

ps re childhood diseases, surely everyone knows measles was down by 98-99 pc before vax introduction.

And if you have had measles you are less likely to have asthma, a lifethreatening disorder which kills 1400 people in the UK every year.

I quite agree, Pixie

"It's an interesting notion that people who have never laid eyes on, never mind met, taught or examined children who the parents report to have regressed, are nevertheless able to say with certainty that the children did not suffer a regression due to vaccination."

Te point which are completely missing is that memories change to what we want it to be. Retrospectively some parents tell a different story to the medical records making it look more like the vaccine did the damage.

Regressive autism was around before the MMR and occurs around the time of the MMR is generally given.

The parents are not doing it on purpose, but we often need something to blame when something goes wrong.

"ps re childhood diseases, surely everyone knows measles was down by 98-99 pc before vax introduction. "

Thatg statistic is not true, it has been discredited.

Parents who choose not to vaccinate are doing so because they think they know what is better for their children than all accepted medical authorites - hence my statement that in their belief they have 'superior' judgement.

Why would the children need to be examined again backto - their illness is a matter of fact, already documented. In what way would subjecting them to examination elucidate matters? There is no known marker for vaccine damage - nothing to differentiate those children from others with similar conditions. What did the parents expect an examination would show?

bruffin - it is true that regressions can be observed in many children who have ASD.

However, the kind of regression usually reported following a vaccination or some other kind of trigger like a virus (funny that - doctors seem to be open to the suggestion that viruses can cause regression but not when it comes in the form of a vaccine ) is a spectacular overnight regression where a child who was for example, communicating and had language suddenly screamed all the time, lost all skills leaving the parent in no doubt of what was the trigger.

When a child has a very severe reaction to eating a peanut, nobody says 'oh it wasn't the peanut - it was a coincidence - the parents were just looking for a reason'

Ok, northernlurker - in that case present me with all the evidence that proves you are right and people who have concerns about vaccination are wrong.......

"Regressive autism was around before the MMR and occurs around the time of the MMR is generally given."

link? I think this is just made up

find me one granny who says it was well known that children could regress around eighteen months, losing all acquired skills and speech

whereas now we all now know this can happen? how come? because it's just something made up to remove attention from the MMR

give me some evidence for regressive autism before 1988

it mirrors the sad coincidence that the age of main SIDS incidence is around the age of infant vax

"The parents are not doing it on purpose, but we often need something to blame when something goes wrong."

do we now? there there to all the parents, it's all in your head dears, even you barristers and doctors, even those of you whose doctors tell you you are right and to avoid vax for your other children

it's all psychological doncha know

I must adjust my posting style, it is unreadable. 100 lines.

So when I spent childhood - vaccinated - in countries where many of the parents were soooo envious of the fact that I was OK and their children got horrible illnessnes and died (OK they didn't have the NHS to pick up the slack).

I do think that in the west we're complacent about the health opportunities we have.

We mind because where people don't worry about illness as they are relying on the rest of us to ensure their child is less at risk - we get pissed off at the fact we bothered. If we all decided not to vaccinate all children would be far more at risk.

I don't doubt for a second that there are risks- I was mortified that when it was up for ds to have mmr they were intending to give him two more vaccines at that time. But I had mmr seperately - so I'm not on the opposite side completely - just that I would not like to think the fact that I spend our time getting ds vaccinated for the benefit of others who think it's everyone elses job to prevent their child from getting horrible illnesses.

Oh bollock.
I am 'hiding' - but left thread open while I went to get DD and now have to repond.

bruffin

I think you comments to me are wank.
I have no problem with reasoned intelligent debate about this. i have never told anyone not to vaccinate. I also regularly point out that in my opinion my sons reaction was highly unusual. My view is that for the vast majority of children vaccination is sensible and safe.I just don't think that is true of my children or some others with simialr immune response problems. Debate away, debate is fine. There are many reasoned differing opinions expressed on the vaccinations threads. But on the main board people happily get quite vile.

Here the position is 'always' presented that vaccination damage is some kind of myth and that those of us who go through agonies to make these decisions are just flakey.

Of course there will be numpties who are acting irrationally or emotionally. There are numpties making irrational decisions in every walk of life. But to dismiss everyone as 'irresponsible' is stereotyping and crass.

You seem to be suggesting that i have to be silent because I have a strong personal connection to this issue. Why the fuck should I? is everone else allow to comment but me?

And you refer to me in particular implying that I take up some kind of anti vaccination position. Which I don't /can't as I am not actually anti vaccine.

I don't stifle debate. If I hope to stifle anything it is the prsentation of everyone who has not vaccinated as some socially irresponsible air head. And the idea that regressive autism fits with a parents need to blame ( the psychobabblebollocks theory).

But perhaps that was the type of debate you were aiming for?

Pixie.
My Dd will have an increasing voice in decisions about her vaccinations as she gets older as DS does already. He has met with the GP on his own and can choose as he sees fit. DD will also have tetanus when she gets a likely injury or when GP recommends. DS1 has had tetnus as he has had rugby related cuts.
I would always discuss at leangth with the GP /Paed. They are, at the very very, least a fantastic resource. I would always weigh their advice really carefully. These decisions are a fricking nightmare for me. I think a lot of parents in my position go through agonies over some of the vaccines, as we do.

Er yes: but they didn't accept the findings of the examinations did they?

Circular riddle

Why don't we believe Andrew Wakefield when he says there may be a connection between MMR and regressive autism?
Because he's a maverick.

Why is he a maverick? Because he says there may be a connection between MMR and regressive autism.

Why don't we believe him? Because he is a maverick.

Why is he a maverick? Because he says there may be a connection between MMR and regressive autism.

etc etc

It was denied before it was even looked into. The finding came before the investigation.

Giveit: not me. I don't live in the west among a vaccinated population.

Pixie: mercury was introduced into vaccines in the 30s, by Eli Lilly I do believe.

Pixie - when my children are old enough to make up their own minds then I would not have any objections for them to be vaccinated in that case. If you read my posts you will see that I'm not completely anti-vaccination, but I am anti mass vaccination. There is a difference.

If my children reach the age of 13 and need a vaccination at that point I would be less concerned because their neurological development would be much more complete than that of a 3 month old or a 2 year old and I would consider the risk to have reduced.

Maybe that was the age they received a mercury vaccination.. does it say, in whatever you're reading that from?

Yes Pixie - my oldest dd is quite severely autistic. She did have general regressions - waved at 8 months, said a few words at 1 - all disappeared by 18 months.

This is not the same kind of regression as for a child who appears completely normal - everything age appropriate who loses all their skills overnight - which is the kind of regression parents report following vaccine damage.