To expect the Doctor to respect my wishes?

[loumum3]

I have not vaccinated my youngest child. I have done this after much research and made an informed decision. The Doctor's surgery has phoned me several times now and written requesting I go in for a discussion about this. I haven't got time for a visit to discuss this, nor do I want to so I said if I had to, I could talk about it on the phone....I have had the Doctor on the phone this afternoon grilling me about my choices, really trying to scare me into having the jabs done and trying to make me feel bad. She cannot see my point of view at all and has been very rude.

Is is really too much to expect a Doctor to respect the decisions I make about my own children ?

Has anyone else experienced this ?

Back again - Andrew Wakefield for all his faults is NOT anti vaccine - in fact he is very much pro-vaccine.

Would all those who choose not to vaccinate with ANY vaccine and who have not received any medical advice to suggest that any vaccine may be a risk be willing to expose their children at say age 12 to the viruses that the vaccines are designed to protect against so that they receive their immunity that way? What if the uptake was only 50% and cases of Diptheria, polio and measles suddenly were very real such that there were 100,000s cases per year - would you change your mind about vaccination?

I don't understand the point of this kind of question, Linden.

People who challenge the received wisdom about vaccines are generally on the defensive. For example, like the OP. It's not a case of trying to convert people: more a case of challenging myths, untruths, false claims. If they are like me, they want more trustworthy research and less denial, denial, denial. There is plenty of evidence out there that ought to be investigated and so far no one really has the answers.

Questions like that come up when so many other points have stumped those who like to maintain the received wisdom. About continuing research into link between autism and gut conditions, about vaccine immunity wearing off, about diseases moving into vulnerable groups, about risk assessment, about the vaccinated non immune, about vulnerable subsets.

So instead there's an attempt to catch people out, which is it seems to me tremendously immature and very narrow.

There's a lot that would make me change my mind about vaccination, but abuse about social responsibility really is not one of them.

It got personal when people who questioned vaccines for whatever reason were described as "not giving a stuff".

Am intrigued how to make vaccoines compulsory

My friends baby who has a disorder that means a vaccine may well kill her- what then?

isolate her from planet vaccine?

I've been vaccinated against a form of Hep 4 times; no immunity. vaccine does not bring guarantees, just lower risks as a whole population. Boosters even more dubious IMO- i'dgive ds3 one possibly if I were allowed to have him tested to see if he needed it (damage already done in his case anyway); I can't afford to pay private (carer), they won't offer

Reason ds4 has not ahd rubella yet? Cost

Mumps is a non iossue imo for ds4 until he hits pre teens then we will consider going abroad if we can afford it then to get the vaccine

There's no either- or in vaccination stakes; lots of mixes and reasonings.
MMR does not mean immune, and no MMR does not mean no vaccine given.

There's actually some reasearch out now ( not pop crap, am doiung MA and it's on proper research systems and peer validated) suggesting that use fo infant paracetamol to reduce fever is babies post- vaccination is linked to ASD and that may be the clue

If so, then it's fair enough that aprents like me and many others made the MMR - ASD connection becuase it was there, even if causality is not.

DS4 is still a few months younger than ds3 was when he regressed so I have no idea if our asd avoidance upbringing has helped and if he does escape it (we have 3 older boys; one autism; one severe case of AS and related co-morbids; one Dyspraxia / ADD) we won't know if it was the drug free birth, extended BF< GF CF diet, no MMR, not living in a high traffic fume area..... no way of knowing but all worth it if it works

Back to tetanus - the vaccination programme has been running for nearly 50 years therefore a large portion of the population is protected. Preventative treatment is standard too for anyone visting A&E with a deep wound. The effectiveness of these treatments is seen in the low number of cases and deaths. To spell it out - cases are low NOT because tetanus isn't a risk but because we have treated so well and for so long.
The tetanus bacteria lives in dust and dirt - so you don't need to cover an umbilical stump in manure - you just need to use unsterilised and unclean equipment. I certainly find it quite hard to imagine circumstances in which a case of neonatal tetanus would occur in the UK but general infection through wounds however is impossible to predict. In failing to immunise your children you leave them open to this infection - it's very simple. IV drug users are one group in which there has been an increase in tetanus infection in the last 20 years. The numbers are small and the factors involved complex but I think it the height of foolishness for any of us to attempt to predict how our children will behave as adults. IV drug users don't seek medical help for at risk injuries.
this is an interesting article showing the contrasts globally For me it really sums up what a luxury choosing not to vaccinate is.

'So that's why my children are less of a risk: because I know about their risk status.' - total nonsense. If you actually are keeping your children away from school and social activities at the slightest sign of a sniffle then you are undoubtedly harming their education and development. I'm not going to stand and cheer you on for that.
Also - mumps - infectious before the classic symptom, rubella - infectious before the rash (assuming you even notice the rash), measles - infectious before the rash - and are you checking your childs mouth on a nightly basis - how else will you know if they have them? Polio - infectious before symptoms - if symptoms indeed appear as in many people they don't. Diptheria - very hard to predict how long you are infectious as it can persist even after antibiotics - and it looks just like a cold. Whooping couch - infectious for three weeks after the cough starts or 5 days after antibiotics.

I have absolutely no faith in your ability to prevent your infectious child from harming by contagio a vulnerable adult or child. Assuming your child avoids these illnesses as a child they are then vulnerable to them as an adult and to passing them on to many others - including tehir own vulnerable infants - as I assume you won't be checking your 30 year olds mouth for spots?

My point is that some people on previous threads have posted that the viruses are 'mild' 'self-limiting' and it doesn't matter if you get them because we can treat people better now (in the case of measles for example) as well as claiming that the immunity received from the disease is better than the one received from the vaccine.
Some of these posters especially if they have had the viruses themselves have 'measles/munps' parties to expose their children to the virus. Fine - this is their point of view.

Now this does not apply to all - and the reasons why someone might be anti-vaccine varies. However those who choose not to vaccinate are in a very priviledged position to be able to have that choice, mainly down to the majority who do choose to vaccinate. My own children are vaccinated to protect themselves and others, especially those that have no immunity - some relatives are immunocompromised.

Some posters who have chosen not to vaccinate( I am thinking of 2 posters who I have had previous conversations with on different threads)are not totally against vaccination - indeed the potential risks to their children from the wild viruses are very real. So if you are worried about the risks from vaccination you must be even more worried about your children catching the actual virus? So it is almost in your interests to ensure others vaccinate? Plus somewhere along the line what persuaded you not to vaccinate - and do you understand the science behind such a decision?

That was my linking to risks/benefits yesterday - the difference between perceived risks/potential risks and real risks. How many children have died today in RTAs (road traffic accidents), how many in the last week? And yet we still drive? Repeatedly and each time we do does each trip increase in risk? Because we think we can limit the risk?

SanctiMoanyArse - compulsory vaccines programs do recognise those who are unable to vacicnated - i.e cancer patients etc etc.

Linden, Pixie, Northern - excellent posts.

We have not seen any evidence to support not vaccinating your children - unless there is some exceptions, such as underlying health issues such as cancer etc.

As northern has already stated choosing not to vaccinate is a luxury.

We're not doint it to be different

We are different and wish we were not;different is shit

We are not anti-vaccine- the older ones had all of theirs as they came up, but with ds4 we are selective, and paid for singles

If you were in a class with ds3 you would not know his vaccine status though- MMR but not Booster; there is soemthing like a 90% chance he is immune but we don't know and neither would anyone else

Likewise ds4: you would think from his records that he has no measles immunity, but he does, we just did it in a way we felt safe with. We've had enough trauma to put that at the top of pur lists.

If they becmae disabled through men C or otehr infection? Well it would be simply another comorbid to add to the list wouldn't it? Even ds4 seems NT at the moment but was born with an ASD risk exceedingb 80% and has not passed the age where ds3 regressed yet.

As for how would you feel if they becmae disabled- well yes, I know probably better than most posters having been there twice. The other potential trigger for ds3's ASD was a fall after being takne from his cot by his older sibling, so I am an expert on guilt.

And if you are having your child MMR's please consider infant nurofen rather than paracetamol. Have read the original study and whilst one study is not enough it's certainly thought provolking.

Oh and someone said do non-MMR choosers understand the science- well I am part way through an MA in ASD and scoring top grades; I reckon I do.

Sancti - you are vaccinating though albeit on a different regime. That is a very different perspective from those refusing all vaccinations. It is the latter persepctive that I find totally incomprehensible.

HAd the choice hoqwever been MMR or nothing then it would have been nothing- it almost was due to finances.

This society that thinks we should forget our very real issues is the same one that refuses to provide us with any support whether from family, state or friends (Mum was good but has become ill),forced me to spend my life fighting for everyhting we need (and usually not getting it) and whilst I am active in society with volunteering, as a family we feel marginalised, outside of society and treated as pariahs; why then wouldanyone reasonably expect me to expose my kids (and indeed dh and I emotionally) to what i consider to be risks considering their especially unique genetics (bowel disorders, auto immune, ASD)? It doesn't work both ways, it's just 'id'd ban you all from coming near your kids' (but won't in any way help even to offer a smile oand is more given to whinging when the carers complain again on MN that we are taking voer teh show; 'nless they have SN'being a laugh-a-minute catchphrase on MN atm.

AS I said, we managed to find the cash for the measles but it's because of what we beleive; I dojn't want any child to be infected by my sons if they got an infection but in all harsh truth I am not putting other peoples concerns above my own. That's harsh, but it's a thick skin society gave to me.

Pixie, I'm afraid NorthernLurker believes we are undoubtedly harming our children's education and development. What do you think of that?

I know it's not true in my case of course, and am rather embarrassed to be engaging with someone who believes they can make that kind of careless judgment.

It may be that I believe NorthernLurker is harming her own children's development with use of vaccinations but I wouldn't dream of saying so. I only defend the position of those who chose not to vaccinate, or not according to the prescribed schedule. I don't choose to attack those who do. What a shame this isn't reciprocated.

So, people don't want to vaccinate because they think others can just get stuffed, we aren't compassionate, or because we want to be different?

It's really inconceivable to you that parents may have made a sincere, informed and rational decision isn't it?

I note a complete failure to respond to points earlier up the thread: and I would put large amounts of money on a bet that no one on this thread who's attacking those who challenge the received wisdom not a single one of you will have read the links on continuing research into autism and bowel conditions.

Northern, have a look back. I didn't say they were no risk, I said they were less of a risk than vaccinated non immune, which is absolutely true.

The first symptom of all those diseases is usually, is almost always, fever (often combined with lethargy but then that's a tough one to really isloate). As I do keep my children at home with a fever of any degree yes, they are less of a risk.

bttat

As one who stated you don't rely on others who do vaccinate would you prefer it if all vaccines were withdrawn so nobody had to put their child through vaccination and worry about any of the side effects? And have a return to how it was pre vaccination?

For what it's worth I don't believe all children should be vaccinated, but the majority of children should be to protect ALL children.Most posters who have not vaccinated clearly have spent time and research on why (although to request single vaccines for every virus - just imagine how complicated that would make things, how expensive that would be for the NHS in terms of time and money, how many times a baby would need a needle stuck in, how many episodes of post-vaccination fever etc). Not all who choose not to vaccinate are as well-read or understand or do it because 'we don't believe in it'.I have commented before how the real culprit behind autism, allergies and auto-immune disorders has less chance of being found because of vaccination focus.

I have read some of those links - in fact I have questioned how many of the studies point to vaccination (and MMR). The paracetamol one in particular is interesting to me (because of my background)and it's effect on the immune system (and ibuprofen also has effects on the inflammatory pathways in the body).

Finally I appreciate that you keep your children at home with a fever - but what about if they develop that fever away from home? Swine flu still spread in this country in spite of the plans to isolate all that came back to the UK plus their close contacts. Isolation as a strategy does not work well enough.

Ibeprofen does have similar effects yes but I can only work with the reseacrh as it presents itself

'the real culprit behind autism, allergies and auto-immune disorders has less chance of being found because of vaccination focus' I kinda disgaree- there isn't a cause for autism, there are many variants of the syndrome and currently we are supposed to refer to it as Autisms (I have covered the dx MA module and achieved top results in group, however aetiology scheduled next eyar and although I have not given up truthfully I akm unlikely to return to complete it, carer's allowance not covering teh fees).

ASD's don't have a single cuase; we already know that some children on the spectrum have mitochondrial dysfunction, we know there are genetic pathways for some children that also seem to include ADHD, Dyspraxia, even arthritis but so far no gene has been positively identified. It seems that there is often a gene (either inherited or mutated) but the triggers vary immensely. There does seem to be a distinct subgroup with associated bowel issues (regardles sof Wakefield, the link still seems to be there) but that's something like 8% of diagnosed people; we know allergies, in particular food intoleraqnces such as casein and gluten intolerances are common in ASD, we know that ASD can be trriggered by severe viral infection (eg herpes), We also know that ASD is a descriptive dx; dsm defines it as a syndrme with shared characteristics- so it does follow that a pwercentage of people will have other disorders including generic brain damage that cause issues mimicking those seen in 'typical' ASD.
Indeed, it is a few eyars ago but I remember doing an essay for Psych at Uni showing how a child suffering damage to the verbala reas of his brain (those indicated as being affected by SPD, a language disorder that is often seen in parallel with ASD) and a close area linked to aggression could be shown as meeting teh criteria of ASD; developing as a child with undetected brain damage, after all, being likley to produce the same sorts of psychological issues required to meet teh criteria.

This is soemthing that may well be reflected in the new DSM-V: there seems to be a likely emphasis on sensory issues (which tends to identify core ASD in my experience) and is rumoured to bring childhood regressive syndrome childhood disintegrative disorder back under the banner of ASD.

There do seem to be problems that arise from people who see ASD as a single dx. For example, whilst ds1 is fairly typical AS, ds3 has asd but is very different from the classic stereotype: diagnosis requires issues with social behaviour but whilst many are withdrawn, ds3 is the opposite and extremly outgoing as he has no boundaries (he does also completely regress into himself at times but these are rarer). That lack of fitting the stereotype meant that teachers etc needed a lot of persuasion before accepting teh dx and backing his move the the SNU where he ahs thrived.

So anyway- when people say there is no proven link theya re totally right: but equally the research ahs not been done either way. The concept behind Wakefield (rather than the research or techniques) actually only suggested a link in a that 8% subgroup and as far as I am aware nothing has been done focussing on that section.

And that's the thing- we canb't say something does or does not cause or rather have an impact on teh development of ASD at the moment. My former course leader (retired now) preicts that within 10 years the research will have prodeuced more results about the subsets, we shall see. But until we have those to break the many different types of ASD down we can't further understand it- for example say a new vaccine for proto-virus Z caused autism in 10% of children fitting a certain description but as yet that subset has not been detected, the ewffect of that vaccine is both hugely significant and likely to not show up in any research.

So- I think by looking for causations at this stage we are following the wrong path. As parents we should be looking at our children, their history, making patterns- Ia m for example certain that ds1 was born with AS: even his maternity notes comment on his independence and there is a message on MN from a chat with Christopher Green where I am told off for over reacting about worrying behaviour that did in fact turn out to be highly significant, that was before ds1 (now 10) was 2! OTOH ds3 seemed to develop typically until just before he turned 3 (he had a late MMR). And ds3 has dyspraxia. My persoanl feling is they share a single genetic predisposition that would probably manifest as dyspraxia but ds1's difficult birth and exposure to casein before his severe intol was dx'd, and ds3's prolonged exposure to casein (a gp confusing lactose and casein free formula when prescribing) along with a head injury and possibly additional environmental insult via either MMR or the calpol used afterwards had a cumulative effect.

Tetanus: The tetanus bug is anaerobic and
therefore affect deep puncture wounds or covered wounds that are left dirty. In 1999, there were three reported cases of tetanus one of which was fatal. Confirmed cases are frequently in the elderly or in drug users. Good wound hygiene, including washing out but squeeing gently to allow blood to flow, washing with 6% Hydrogen peroxide solution 50/50 in water and keeping the wound uncovered will significantly reduce the risk of tetanus infection.