to think this girl should have worn the headscarf in the mosque?

[singsinthebath]

here

Her mother sounds like a lovely tolerant woman (not).

well, I disagree with BOTH the school & the families who refused to go.

children ARE allowed to miss certain things because of their religious beliefs - I have taught in a v mixed school & we all knew that certain lessons/events were not compulsory. they could, legitimately, say that they didn't want to go.

the families who didn't want to go seemed very entrenched and narrow minded against the trip. however, the school appears to be equally stubborn about forcing the children to go.

As far as I understand covering the head is a sign of subserviance and it that, and long shapeless clothing is to stop men being distracted by their womanly assets!
I can kind of understand why a mother with any feminist principal might feel offended by her little girl having to cover her arms and hair for this reason.
I do think it is wrong for a parent to be asked to sign a permission slip though, and then threatened with consequences if she doesn't sign it.The school have handled the whole thing very badly .

oldandgrey-(i feel mean calling you that!) its seen as a mark of respect, because you're entering a place of worship, and it applies to both men and women normally. I noticed the school letter only referred to girls needing to do it - not sure if thats the schools mistake or just that particular mosque's way of doing things - but normally the rule applies to both.

The girls weren't asked to wear long shapeless clothing - just trousers i think? or below the knee skirts - which in my very old fashioned view i think girls at school should be wearing anyway.

oldandgrey - I don't think the mum and her daughter are capable of intellectualising this as a sign of feminine subservience. They are objecting to her having to "dress as a muslim" so I think they are looking at it from a religious or racial perspective.

When i was in Year 6 and studied Islam as part of R.E. The school arranged a trip to a Mosque in Bradford for us, with a Voluntary amount of £2 i think it was.

The letter that went home said in so many ways 'if you feel uncomfortable about your child visiting this establishment then please speak to a teacher'

My mum didnt want me going and i sent back the sheet with the 'no' my child will not be attending.

Myself and 4 other students were pulled out of class one day about a week before the trip and basically TOLD we WILL be going whether our parents wanted us to or not.

Needless to say my mother wasnt impressed. I wasnt bothered personally because it got me out of school but my mum didnt agree. She came into school and spoke to the R.E Teacher in charge and said 'she doesnt agree c/e children visiting such a place when Muslim student wouldnt visit our churches etc etc. it was very embarrassing.

The day of the trip approached and me and the 4 other students whos parents didnt want their kids to go was FORCED onto the Coach and was made to go to visit the mosque.

I cant remember if we had to wear head scarfs but i think we may have had to do something so our hair wasnt showing, i can vaguely remember kids wearing their hoods up.

We only had one muslim girl at our school who then HAD TO TRANSLATE what was been said to us, as it was in Islam.

Its only recently i found out that if a women is 'at her time of the month' she isnt allowed into a mosque! Is that true? or have ai misread something?

What did your mum do cheekypinksox?

There wasnt much she could do. I was told when i got to school that i WOULD be going on the trip whether i agreed or not. When i got home from school i told my mum who did go into school to explain that she said she didnt agree with me going and that if the school was making the trip compulsory why ask permission from parents and ask them to send in a form saying
my child Will/Will not be attending.

She wasnt impressed but there wasnt much she could have done, because she didnt know that i had gone until i got home from school.

Muslim students do visit churches though, don't they? (And catholic women cover their heads to meet the pope.)

YANBU. Quite frankly, it's an odd story. I know most of us don't wear headgear in church any more (unless you are a granny in a hat / with African headwrap / very devout), but it's not so long ago it would have been more commonplace. For example, Cherie Blair wore a mantilla when meeting the Pope. And let's not forget those that wear veils when they get married - what is the difference really? Surely it is quite normal to have some kind of dress code in any place of worship, cover arms and wear long skirt (although I do know someone who goes to (Catholic) church in shorts with holes in who, oddly enough, is one of the most devout people I know).

Cheekypinksox, when I was on a course as part of my TA training I was told by my fellow muslim students that if you are menstruating you are now allowed in the mosque as you are 'unclean'. I had a bit of an argument about the 'unclean' bit being a bit of a feminist and said I wouldn't go at all then if I was made to feel unclean, I mean jeez . Another rule made by men.

Cheeky, I just wanted to point out that "Islam" isn't a language; Arabic is.

And to those that have complained about Islam being a misogynist subservient culture, have ANY of you actually read the Bible?? St Paul in Corinthians advocates covering one's head as a female in a place of worship. Specifically, he says:

" ... any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head--it is the same as if her head were shaven. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her wear a veil. For a man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. (For man was not made from woman, but woman from man. Neither was man created for woman, but woman for man.) That is why a woman ought to have a veil on her head ..."

He also advocates non-intermingling of different religions by marriage (e.g. a Christian should not marry a non-Christian etc). In the Bible, women are also not permitted to speak in a place of worship and are to remain sub-servient to their husbands.

I could go on and on, but you get the general gist ...

The woman in the DM article is uninformed and, in perpetuating her obvious lack of understanding of her own religion, unintelligent. That is all.

Fluffyone, I can't imagine a muslim child being made to visit a church if they didn't want to go. I know many of the muslim children at dc's school leave assembly during the prayer at the end. As I said earlier dd's class were doing a music recital in a church hall and a few muslim pupils said they couldn't go because it was a church. Noone forced them. That is their choice and to be respected.

What if they required Muslim children to visit a Synagoge? What if they refused? Has anyone organised a trip like that?

Asana the difference is christianity does not insist on that now as the bible was written 2000 years ago and times have changed.

Dd's class did a synagoge visit and she has informed me that all the muslim children went.

why does everyone keep saying that muslim children wouldnt get taken to church visits, IME they do all the time

Muslim parents wouldnt generally want their children to participate in a service or act of worship but walking around the building is fine

Littleducks you can't speak for all muslims and as my previous post of 18.15 says a music recital in a church hall was not considered appropriate for some, not all, of dd's class mates. Why is it ignorant of the catholic mother but not so of these parents?

Can I just say it re the menstruation and not being allowed in the mosque. It is untrue. The premise is that all those years ago, there was not the sanitary protection we are very lucky to have now and it was seen as unclean to leave blood in the mosque. It was said that if woman was menstruating she should bring a rug to sit on, that she can then take with her. Even if a man had a cut to the hand and it was bleeding persistently he would also not be allowed into the mosque as it is the blood that is the problem.

This is my understanding but quite off the point.

"As far as I understand covering the head is a sign of subserviance and it that, and long shapeless clothing is to stop men being distracted by their womanly assets!"

Men are also supposed to wear formless clothes.

SongBiird, thank you for your explanation which makes sense. I was amazed that this was the case but was assured by both muslims and a jewish student that it was acceptable as wea re 'unclean' during our period.

But that was a music recital, not a visit the building trip, so totally different.
(Music is disaproved of, with some scholars saying its totally forbidden so i think that would be a major part of the religous reason)

They had learned the recorder over the term though. They hadn't opted out of learning it and the reason given was the church hall not the music. Lots of muslim children learn musical instruments at the school as well as they have an orchestra.

I think the head's letter was unreasonable.