to not let DH's father hold our baby when it is born?

[asdf1234]

This will be a fairly long question I am afraid. I am asking this here as I am pretty sure I am anonymous...!

Its a serious quandry that I am in, so all advice appreciated.

DH's parents divorced when DH was 10. It has since emerged that his father was sexually inappropriate with both my DH and his sibling when they were young. There was nothing really serious, but both DH and his sister recall feeling that something was definately "not right" sexually at very young ages when they would not, in a normal family, have been aware of anything sexual at all. For instance, DH recalls being terrified, aged about 6, that his father would get into his bed and take his pants off. Also being terrified that his father would get into the bath with him. None of these things would have occurred to me re my father at that age! Also, both DH and his sibling have memories of inappropriate touching - upper thigh and crotch and of being aware at far too young an age (again, at 5, 6 and 7) that the touching was somehow odd.

Later, when DH was a teenager, he realised that his father (who of course he no longer lived with) was "odd" sexually. For instance, when they were in the car together when DH was about 16, his father would point out out very young girls (10,11 or 12 year olds) to DH with a "phwaorr, look at that".

when DH was 16, he was at his grandmother's house with his father, who had since had another child with a girlfriend. In front of DH and his grandmother, DH's father had the new child (about 5 at the time) on his lap and began stroking and inappropriately touching very highup her thigh. DH felt completely awful/confused/didn't know what hhe should do but his grandmother ignored it. DH didn't feel he could say anything at the time (and 15 years later still feels awful about that).

DH's relationship with his father is actually very healthy, in that he realises he is sexually very abonormal but has forgiven him for past actions. He is aware he needs to protect himself emotionally and he doesn't really like his father, but he still loves him - he is his dad. He has a civil but distant relationship with him. He sees him out of kindness and is not bitter towards him. I see DH's father with DH about twice a year, for an hour or two.

I am now expecting our first child, DH's father's first grandchild. DH's father is really excited and, although it is always odd and awkward, has phoned a couple of times to see how we are and has been round to see us.

Both DH and I are in a total quandry about what to do when our baby is born. Do we allow any physical contact between the child and DH's father?

I am veering towards no physical contact (no holding etc) at all. Both DH and I 100% agree that the child would never be left alone with DH's father - he could of course visit us and "see" the baby, but we would never leave the room etc.

I see it as my primary job to protect the baby. Even if DH's father never "did" anything or touched inappropriately, I do not want my child to have any "sense" of something being not right sexually at an age where a child should not be aware of sexuality at all.

The problem is that, to stop DH's father from holding the child, we would have to explain why. DH acknowledges that his father would probably accept our decision (and realise why) but DH also feels that it would totally break his heart. His father is quite an old man now and lots of things have gone wrong in his life. My DH's happiness and the fact that we're having a baby is pretty much the only thing that is now good in his life.

Is it unreasonable to prevent DH's father from holding the baby?

Both DH and I are genuinely torn.

I know this thread sometmes becomes a bit of a slanging match, and that is fair enough, but I really would appreciate some proper, sound advice please.

Ok, looks like DH's sister is in agreement that something odd was definitely going on.

I wouldn't allow contact, and I'd tell him why.

So sorry for you and your poor DH though

I'm a bit all or nothing about things in general but probably about this too. If you see him at all, then you accept (to an extent) his faults as described to you by a 3rd party, and manage them if they apply to you. And if you really feel he is a manipulative paedophile, you drop out of the equasion and dont see him and therefore he wouldn't get to see his grandchild either. What your DH does, and whether he chooses to see him, is really up to him, but he must not involve your child without your consent, which he would not have.

I'm not saying you should or I would, but, you can continue a relationship with your FIL without him ever being able to hurt your child if you are always in the room and always in control. Hence the quandry I suppose.

I am another poster landing firmly in the "no contact whatsosver" camp.

I have a feeling that once the baby comes, your DH may find himself feeling VERY differently WRT to contact with his father.

i would say no contact at all, sorry.

in the interest of the child, is it fair to allow the child to be in the same room as a person and to not allow the child to have any form of contact other than talking with the person? this is likely to confuse the child and upset the other person. if your DH knows that whether serious or not(in his opinion- in mine any sexual contact is serious), inappropriate sexual contact happened between his father and himself and siblings, it would be irresponsible of him to allow that man within 100 miles of his own child! he knows how it feels to be treated that way and would forsake his own child to save his fathers feelings even though he knows his father abused him as a child? if this were me and my DH i would stand firm and refuse any and all contact between his father and my baby!!

my mum was seriously sexually abused by her father as a child and allowed him contact between me and my sister when we were around 5-6 years old. i have known about the abuse since i was about 12 (my auntie told me in an attempt to get one over on my mum-very dysfunctional family) and i was always bitter and confused about that. i cant understand even now, since talking to my mum, why she put his feelings infront of her own daughters' safety i suppose it is part and parcel of abuser-abusee relationships that though

I agree with withorwithoutyou,
where/when do you draw the line?

Your dh loves his father and dosen't want to hurt his feelings but he may do some day if grand father realises he is being watched all the time, can't bring his grandchild out to the garden etc

When I was a little girl I was in my aunties house,
we were walking down the hall to see her new bathroom,
a relative of theirs took me by the hand and burn't me with his cigarette, I remember being afraid and scared, even though my mum and dad were right infront of me,
then when my cousin turned 18 and the same relative(who was now an old man) came to their house and started playing with her 3 year old sister,
my cousin went into hysterics, he had abused her for 6/7 years and it only came out then because she didn't want it happening to her sister

I agree with other posters that you need to think forwards - a baby (imo) is relatively easy to protect - what do you do when a toddler crawls onto his knee? A 4 yo goes to him for a bedtime cuddle? I don't think you can say nothing, maintain contact & hope to control things in a way that feels safe for you.

I think whatever you decide, you need to be upfront with him - tell him that you are not comfortable with how he behaves around children. He might not like that, but that's how you feel. Then you can decide on your rules - but I think that honesty (so that he knows you watching, & knows he needs to self-police) that would be absolutely the start point for me.

I think the relationship your DH has with his Father is really strange, I can't decide if I think your DH is still being abused (emotionally) or if he is just a very understanding/forgiving person - I just cannot imagine having that relationship myself.

Has your DH spoken to his Father about what happened when he was a child?

It is a shame you didn't talk about this (what you would do) before telling him you are pregnant, as it is you have allowed him to think he will be a part of the childs life.

How old is DH's Dad? You say he's not in good health - how long do you think he will live?.... if you think he's not likely to make it through another couple of years then I would allow him to see the child, but I would keep the baby in a sling most of the time, only allowing him to hold it maybe briefly.... if he is likely to be around for many years I would tell DH that his Father is not going to be a part of the babies life at all - that he wont be seeing the baby when it's born or anytime after. He can see photos etc, but that's it and I would be very clear why.

It is worrying that you, your DH & his sister have these feeling about him, yet you haven't ever reported him - who elses children has he had access to?

yes, I can't believe how 'reasonable' people are being...this is a child abuser! Never mind don't hurt his feelings, he should be reported

I don't think your plan of never leaving him alone with the baby is workable. Suppose he visits post-birth and you desperately need to go to the loo - or deal with the inevitable leaking maternity pads (tmi there!). How long can you hold off for? Will you take the baby to the loo with you? What happens if the doorbell rings, you want to make a cup of tea, get some water? Honestly, it's unworkable.

ChippingIn sadly thats what happens to most abusers, did you read my post,
when my cousin reported her relative, turns out he had been abusing 2 generations of their family, her own aunts and uncles, who never told anyone and BTW didn't let their children near him but never told my aunty why, and my aunty used his wife as a regular babysitter

Has your DH ever talked to a counsellor about what happened when he was a child?

I can see that it is difficult for him to go against his father, but it seems to me that his father is still controlling him. And through him you and any children that you have together.

I think that the only way I would allow him into my DC's life would be if he (your FIL) agreed to go to counselling, admitted that his actions were wrong. Which I very much doubt that he would be willing to do.

But in setting down this stipulation, Family Counselling - perhaps with the other siblings - you have passed the buck to your FIL.

If he wants to keep in contact with your family, those are you conditions.

Your poor DH
Has he received any help/counselling?

I am in agreement with the other posters, I would not allow your FIL anywhere near my house, it is not worth the risk.
IN fact, if I found out my FIL did anything like that to my DH when he was a child, I would have to confront him and tell him to stay the hell away from us!

With deepdarkwood on this. I am in no position (and nor are any of us apart from OP and her DH)to judge whether he is a "manipulative paedophile" or an old man with issues around boundaries and interaction. But I think you/DH have to be upfront with him (however gently) whether you go for the holding or no holding route. If you are upfront, you maintain control over the situation, if you're not you're always be on tenterhooks/trying to negotiate when you should be able to just say yes or no.

It might well upset him - but you can try to contain this, depending on how you approach it. He is an adult, however old he is and no matter how much has gone wrong in his life.

Half sister, not step sister, different things.

Is this a real question? "Should I let my child have contact with a child abuser"?
Hmm, let me ask internet randoms, I'm not sure!

I woukld err on the side of caution and not let him have any contact. Tough shit if it breaks his heart. Just say "given everything thats happended we think its best that you dont form a bond with xxxx". Draw the line NOW, not when they are born.

I agree that DH might still have some issues, I get completely you cant push it but given he is going to be a Daddy, would now not be a good time to have some help?

My (now dear departed) parents would have been in a similar quandary...
Years and years ago (back in the 1960s, I think), my paternal grandfather was convicted of indecent exposure in front of a ten-year-old girl. This was before I was born, and I didn't know anything about it until I was in my 20s and my grandfather long dead. Apparently (and understandably) it devastated the family. My grandmother only just about stayed with him; my father was pretty screwed up by it all (he actually went on to suffer from severe depression; not sure whether his father's conviction played a part but I'm sure it didn't help). But the family pulled together and made bloody sure my grandfather was NEVER left in the company of young girls ever again.
About ten years later, I was born. My parents never left me alone with him - not for a minute. (We didn't see that much of him, anyway). And I was always very glad about that - even when I was very young - because I sensed there was something 'not quite right' about him. It wasn't because my Mum would leap between us if he ever attempted to kiss me hello or goodbye (not in a melodramatic way - just in a way to distract him or me and defuse the moment), but the way I sensed he looked at me and made my skin crawl.
Mum told me all several years after he died. In the years he was alive, she and my father did a spectacular job of keeping me safe and out of his way without ousting him from the family completely, but looking back I really wish they had kept him away from me anyway. He made me feel deeply uncomfortable without even saying or doing anything; it was just the vibe he gave off (I hate using the word 'vibe', but it's the only way I can describe it.) Family gatherings (Xmas etc) always have a little cloud over them in my memory because I just remember this dirty little old man hovering about and wishing he'd go away. Kids are incredibly sensitive, and even without him ever actually doing something to me I felt there was something very wrong - even as young as five, I remember him popping around unannounced and my friend being in the garden playing in just her knickers,and my feeling appalled and terrified that he might see her like that. I remember feeling quite sick, actually, but not having a clue why.
I guess what i'm saying in a roundabout way is keep the man in question away from your child. However vigilant you are, there's every chance your child will pick up on his sinister nature and that could make them feel uncomfortable and 'dirty' without him ever laying a finger on them. I was never abused, and I'd never dream of equating my experience with any child who had been molested. But I still feel there was a violation of sorts going on there (all be it in the mind) and I feel very strongly that you shoud protect your child from a similar experience.
Good luck. It must be a horrible situation to be in. I really do feel for you.

I agree with the poster who has said your DH will feel very differently (as will you) when you hold your newborn child in your arms.

Your DH may also struggle with the emotional realisations of a parent's love for their child and the reality of his own childhood. I know I did. It is very common to function with a toxic parent on a superficial level as your DH is doing currently and have all feelings totally blown out of the water when you start your own family.

I would cut all contact TBH now before your child forms a bond with this paedophile. I feel for your DH and if I were in your situation I would be more than happy to be the villain of the situation and put my foot down.

Does he live a distance away from you??

crap, very helpful advice, bloody hell, it goes to show eh! sad

OP read her post, she KNOWS

Suzette that is a good post and I agree that you just know sometimes even as a child.

I had a kind of similar siuation butmy parents where not as good at handling it as yours from the sounds of it. Being told 'put some knickers on under your nightie your grandad might pop round'.... . To which I used to silently regard the irony, as I was subjected to someone much worse on a daily basis.

Kids pick up more than adults realise.

Also OP, your DH sounds like he has 'blocked' certain memories, he remembers fear in certain very inappropriate situations but no memory of why....

I feel so bloody sad for him, no one deserves to be subjected to these 'people', think of your child and put them first above all else.

I can´t help but think cut contact.
If your husband wants to see him-OK-but why must you & your child?

Just because it is your husbands father it does not give you less of a say-not in such circumstances!

No contact.

You don't want your child to experience any confusio or weird feelings, what do you think will happen when shes 5 satin a room with the ggrandad shes not allowed to touch??

everyone one else she can play with, sit on their laps, cuddle them, but not 'grandad xyz, were not allowed to go near him'

That could mess her up too, and what will you say when she asks why??

Cut all contact. He will know why.

This is a really tough one. If you go with your instincts then you have to be prepared for all the stuff that goes with it.

I had a similar experience with a friend of someone close to me in my family. Nothing definite. Just didn't like the way he touched my niece (at 10) (he was her step-father - and similar to what you describe), always 'walking in' on her when she was in the shower. All explained away as just being a tactile person.

When I visited with my 5 year old daughter he kissed her hello on the lips. dh and I struggled about whether to say anything. In the end we decided that even if nothing ever happened we didn't want our daughter to be put in the position of feeling 'uncomfortable' and not knowing if it was her fault or someone else's.

We knew if we said anything, it would make it almost impossible for us to see my family member and my niece again, it would not be accepted by my family member.

We asked if he could not kiss her on the lips again. The whole thing exploded, we were asked to leave the house (expected). The rest of my family think he's a 'nice guy' and that we have 'made a fuss' over nothing. It has had ripple effects on my relationships with the rest of my family and dragged up stuff I feel upset about from my own past.

All I can say is that I'm still glad that we did it. I still believe it was the right thing to do. I'm glad we stood up for my daughter's right not to feel guilty about something that is not her fault.

It's a really hard thing to do - but, for me, it was worth it (even if I was wrong about what I thought was going on)- not to feel I'd let my daughter down and not acted when I should have done.

Good lord, sorry to be blunt but I wouldn't let someone who was going to perv over my DCs within a mile of me and my family. Yes, he may not be able to cop a feel but seriously, being near your children possibly having indecent thoughts running through his mind?

I think you are a very lovely person to be talking and considering this for what is clearly your husband's sake.

There has been a lot of sensible advice from the posters before me and I just wanted to echo that really. You will be able to control things to a certain extent now, but the reality is that things happen that are out of your control and you might have to leave the baby/toddler/child alone with grandad. It's a safe assumption to make that you will never be able to trust this man, so why put yourself through the risk of thinking what if he has touched my child? I couldn't bear it.

I also think that kids are definitely sensitive to odd people. I have an uncle who has never to my knowledge done anything to anyone, but ever since I was a young girl has given me the serious creeps. I used to hate him going anywhere near me to say hello or goodbye. I know that's a bit ridiculous as I have no evidence to say he's a child abuser but all I'm saying is that I hated being left at my aunties house if I knew he would be there. You say that your relationship with him is awkward and your husband doesn't actually like him. Listen to those instincts because your child will too. Let children be children for as long as possible. If your child finds out why grandad was a bit odd, that too will be confusing and frightening for them at a later stage. I just wouldn't go there.

I also think that whilst it's hard for your husband to maybe face up and talk to your dad about what happened, he should. He has clearly dealt with it well all things considered and why should it continue to be treated as a dirty secret? Your FIL did terrible things and there are consequences to that - i.e. facing up to his past and not seeing his grandchildren in a way that he might expect. He should be grateful ultimately that he has any relationship at all with his family.

I think you probably know the answer already but it's hard because you want your husband to put his foot down, but maybe he can't as people have suggested.

What if he does manage something? Is that going to make your DD feel that she is somehow responsible because she wasn't careful enough around Grandpa?