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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be so fuming I need to ask MNer's for help with this

138 replies

BattyKoda · 29/04/2010 11:23

I need help to write a stern letter to my Doctors surgery. I'm so angry I don't think I can manage it without swearing.

I have started a thread about this before here

The jist of it is:

DP took DS2 for his first set of jabs. The nurse told him she needed to get permission from "the person that gave birth to him" and phoned me. DP was really upset by this, his name is on the birth certificate, DS has his surname.

Cut to today and I have just taken DS for his second lot. It was the same nurse. She said 'oh I think your DP was a bit angry with me last time' I said, yes, understandably.

actually I will do this in dialogue:

Her: Well we have to ask
Me: Why?
Her: Becuase he could have brought him without your permission.
Me: Well are you going to call him today then? I could have brought him without his permission.
Her: No, the decision is down to the mother, the person that gave birth to him
Me: What about adoptive parents
HEr: well thats different, they have taken on responsibility
Me: My DP already has permission, he has equal parental responsibility to me
HEr: How would you feel if a childminder brought him without you knowing?
Me: WHAT?? A CHildminder??? He's not a childminder, he's the boys father!!!
HEr: OK, OK, well if he brought him without you knowing and I gave him the jab, how would you feel about me then?
ME: It would be nothing to do with you, I would be angry at him. It's not down to you to decide his parental rights, that was done when his name was put on the birth certificate
HEr: I don't want to argue
Me YOu brought it up (childish )

Just beofre I went she pointed to the consent form that I would need to sign if DP brought him again

So, more eloquent MNer's please help me with my letter

OP posts:
Original poster
BattyKoda · 30/04/2010 13:37

My DP has parental responsibility regardless of marriage, this should make no differnce.

But we are getting married, in 2 months, if that makes you feel better

OP posts:
marantha · 30/04/2010 13:42

Why should it make me feel better? I wouldn't wish marriage on anyone at the moment.

Yes, you're right: your dp DOES have parental responsibility. What I don't understand about you is why you have such objection to proving it. Do you think you're above the rules or something? Most normal people would shrug their shoulders and provide appropriate documentation. You, you think you're so special everyone else should just know. NOT REASONABLE.

AmpleBosom · 30/04/2010 14:10

marantha based on your argument the nurse should also be asking the op for proof she is the mother. It has nothing to do with being married.

Original poster
BattyKoda · 30/04/2010 14:10

But she's not asked for documentation. She's said regardless of the law, parental responsibilty or marriage only I, the "person that gave birth" to our son can give consent for jabs.

OP posts:
Xenia · 30/04/2010 14:17

It's the sexism of it which is annoying. Fathers have children as do mothers. I don't think we ever had this problem. Eg for 17 years my children's father took them to 100% of their denist appointments in school holidays (he is a teacher and I have always worked full time) and no one ever questioned if I agreed to a filling of their teeth. I could understand a policy that all people brining a child need to show ID of course.

The other thing was our daily nanny did most of the babies' GP appointments but the GPs were used to babies with nannies. It wasn't an issue. I can't remember if I went to vaccination ones - probably some of them.

This is a parental rights fairness issue. But I suspect it's just one sexist nurse or surgery which just needs to be set straight on the issue. These are crucial issues though because in plenty of couples one will want circumcism and the other not and all kinds of important issues and there have over the years been a good few court actions where parents usually once separated have to have the court decide what is in the child's best interest over medical treatment when the parents can't agree.

AhLaVache · 30/04/2010 14:36

Marantha you're not really making sense.

It has NOTHING to do with marriage, not in this particular instance - where the nurse has said permission has to come from the person who gave birth to the child - nor in a mmore general sense, have you seen the many posts detailing the actual facts about PR?

Also "do you think you're above the rules?"

Which rules??

ChocHobNob · 30/04/2010 14:43

This is a massive problem. Fathers not being granted their parental responsibility. This happens a lot with schools as well. With the father being denied information without "proof" from the Mother. Even if they provide "proof" by form of a birth certificate, contact order or DNA test results. It's basically ignorance.

I hope you got the letter sorted OP.

diddl · 30/04/2010 14:47

Any way not sure what it´s like now, but I signed in the red book that as the child´s parent/ person with PR the disadvantages of immunisations had been explained to me.

And OPs partner falls into both of those catagories!

dinosaurinmybelly · 30/04/2010 14:49

I don't think this is sexism. The NHS has to draw the line somewhere, and this policy must exist for a reason. If it prevents one vulnerable child from coming to harm, then I frankly think it is worth the inconvenience.

I agree it is a real pity when some fathers take their parental responsibilities very seriously and should of course have the same parental rights as a birthing mother, but unlike with adoption there is no legal contract between a birthing mother, her partner and the child in question so the NHS cannot make an assumption that might put a child at risk.

treedelivery · 30/04/2010 14:50

Must read whole thread....

...but on the face of it I haven't a problem with the policy.

I can easily imagine a scenario where parents disagree on the need to vaccinate, and one takes the child without the others blessing.

It seems appropriate to me that the legal gaurdian must sign a consent.

It seems approproprate to me that this person be the mother, unless the courts have awarded custody to the father..or indeed adoptive parent etc. That may be a huge issue on a national scale, about our assumption of how familes work. I'd say that in a large amjority of cases however the assumption may hold true and that many people would have no issue with this.

Was she abrupt with you op? In your op the concersaton doesn't seem rude or unreasonable. The nurse used examples to explain their point of view. I wouldn't have an issue with that personally, unless she was rude or aggressive.

ChocHobNob · 30/04/2010 14:52

But there is no policy saying the Mother MUST be consulted at all times. The policy is a person with parental responsibility must make the decision (or both be in agreement in some cases).

marantha · 30/04/2010 14:52

AppleBlossom Yes, the mother should be asked for proof, also.

My point is this: the nurse here is damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

The OP's post has a tone of "they should just know" about it. But nobody else can be expected to know without some kind of proof, can they?

AmpleBosom · 30/04/2010 14:55

treedelivery both the mother and father have parental responsibility, the nurse only needs to establish that the person who has brought the child for immunidation has parental responsibility.

i have linked the relevant policies/guidance in relation to consent, anyone with parental responsibility can give consent for treatment.

treedelivery · 30/04/2010 14:57

Well if that is the wording of the policy then this practice may be acting in a very very 'belt and braces' way.

can't say I would take that personally and take their time up by complaining, nor would I challenge the nurse's practce [who followed their policy] by complaining.

But then I've probably seen far too many examples where the assumption that people are acting in the best interests of the child is far far from wrong, and so am probably very cautious. I have seen some very complicated family set ups and so can totally understand a need for a very clear watertight policy.

But if they have invented a rule ther ability to do so should probably be questioned.

diddl · 30/04/2010 14:58

So is it now a policy that all men need to prove that they have PR?

treedelivery · 30/04/2010 14:58

Maybe the practice has had an unpleasant incident in the past and has had a knee jerk reacton.

diddl · 30/04/2010 15:02

But the nurse was surely wrong in stating that she must have the permission of the "person that gave birth"?

OP-just noticed the bit at the bottom of your first post though-a form that you would have to sign-so perhaps policy?

AmpleBosom · 30/04/2010 15:06

But what proof do you want? I am a nurse who gives immunisations, i ask the presenting person what relation they are to the child.
I also establish if the parents are married or the father is named on the birth certificate and if the mother is aware that the child is being brought for immunisation.

Any nurse giving immunisations should be aware of the issues surrounding consent. The nurse shouldn't 'just know' but it is part of her job to ask.

If an adult presents at a baby clinic at the correct appointment time with a child for immunisation surely it is fair to assume that the adult either is the person with parental responsibilty (PR)or has been asked to attend by that adult with PR.

I often have grandparents/step parents/other randon family members signing consent forms and presenting with children for immunisation. It is my job to establish who that person is and whether they have the legal right to provide consent.

The issue is that the nurse is saying that only the person who gave birth to the child can give consent which is not correct. If you read the links i have posted it clearly explains this.

Original poster
BattyKoda · 30/04/2010 15:16

Yes Diddl - a form that only I should sign. Even though she had it clarified by both of us that my DP was able to make the decision, she still wouldn't have it.

OP posts:
Original poster
BattyKoda · 30/04/2010 15:18
OP posts:
Ivykaty44 · 30/04/2010 15:24

My old gp would give me the results of my dd2 test - but the same gp gave my ex dh the results on the same day...

he actually had the balls to say sorry after I telephone and said it was possilby sexual discrimination.

diddl · 30/04/2010 15:29

*BattyKoda"-can you remember what the form said?

Does anyone else know of this sort of thing?

I can see that they need to be careful- and I can see what Ample means about checking if they have the consent of parent.

But couples can disagree-so then the only way would to be to get the consent of both parents!

AmpleBosom · 30/04/2010 15:37

The form was probably a consent form which the parent should sign on each occasion an immunisation is given. You usually have to sign a form with the hv pior to an immunisation invitations being sent which is like an intention to immunise - some parents refuse all immunisations and don't want any invitations at all.

The mother's consent is not any more valid than the father's consent. If parents disagree and one feels strongly that immunisations shouldn't be given usually the person who feels strongly will make it known. It is then decided by the court but as it is generally accepted that immunisation is in the best interests of the child they would usually be given.

A nurse cannot be expected to check birth certificates/marriage certificates/perform DNA tests in order to establish these things .

diddl · 30/04/2010 15:42

"A nurse cannot be expected to check birth certificates/marriage certificates/perform DNA tests in order to establish these things"-

Absolutely-but there must come a point where they have to believe what the person is telling them?

And for eg-if both parents have PR & the mother takes the baby to be immunised & the father phones to say no-what then?

marantha · 30/04/2010 15:55

tbh, I think the whole thing is a bit of a fuss over nothing- I don't see why parents should have a say over baby immunisations, anyway.
As long an accurate record is kept of what jabs the baby HAS had/not had, that's all that matters.