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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

481 replies

Alouiseg · 24/04/2010 20:58

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

OP posts:
MillyR · 24/04/2010 23:24

The reason I assume that the supernatural requires a different way of thinking from material reality, which requires a different way of thinking from social constructs, is because there are a great many people working on how to think about these three different areas, and have been for thousands of years. Many of these people are interested in more than one area (a Catholic priest did a lot of the work on the big bang theory for example).

These people have created different systems of philosophical thought for understanding and communicating each area. Some people attempt to create interdisciplinary work to connect different spheres but have so far met with limited success.

As I am not a genius, I think it unlikely that within my limited life span, I am likely to create a new system of thought that allows me and others to study the supernatural in the way that material reality is studied.

DuelingFanjo · 24/04/2010 23:24

exactly ooojamaflip.

I am an atheist. I haven't rejected anything, I am not fighting anything. I have never had anything to reject. As an Atheist I just don't believe in a god and religion has never figured in my life.

nighbynight · 24/04/2010 23:26

UQD - It can exist. Every atheist I have ever met is firmly convinced that they have got it. In my opinion, very few of them actually do have an adequate moral framework.

Not putting my religion in your face? So I'd better take off my cross necklace then? And remove that headscarf if Im muslim?
In the end, it comes down to practising religion in private at home, and not talking about it in public.

PixieOnaLeaf · 24/04/2010 23:27

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tethersend · 24/04/2010 23:27

That's my point though, Quattro- we both believe Africa exists. You, because you've been there; me, because I believe the testimony of people who have been there, along with film footage and photographs.

You know Africa exists. I believe it does.

DuelingFanjo · 24/04/2010 23:28

"Every atheist I have ever met is firmly convinced that they have got it. In my opinion, very few of them actually do have an adequate moral framework."

really!?

ooojimaflip · 24/04/2010 23:29

RE:Africa versus God.

Well I have been to Africa as it happens, but even if I hadn't, there are several pieces of fruit in my fridge that if they DIDN'T come from a place called Africa we need some serious conscpiray theory to work out where they did come from. So the existence of Africa is a hypothesis I'm willing to accept with a degree of certainty that tends to absolute.

God I see no evidence of at all. So that's a hypothesis I see no reason to accept.

DuelingFanjo · 24/04/2010 23:29

"In my opinion, very few of them actually do have an adequate moral framework."

and every Christian has?

UnquietDad · 24/04/2010 23:29

Thing is, faith is all trust and no evidence (although some people like to claim that people's personal testimonies are evidence, which is on shaky ground).

I don't like to believe anything, in general, unless the weight of evidence is in its favour.

That should not be confused with needing 100% proof - it's just called needing enough evidence to make it very reasonably likely. 1% isn't enough. In fact, 10% isn't enough. In fact, insofar as one can put a mathematical figure on it, even 50% isn't enough for me.

I remember having this argument during the last World Cup (which shows I must have been banging my head against this particular brick wall for nearly 4 years) and using all sorts of examples about the statistical likelihood of, say, Trinidad and Tobago winning the tournament. There were only two answers - Yes and No - but one was vastly more unlikely than the other.

BitOfFun · 24/04/2010 23:30

Atheism is a position. Religion is a faith-based belief.

PixieOnaLeaf · 24/04/2010 23:31

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JustMyTwoPenceWorth · 24/04/2010 23:31

Fair point, onagar. But that's the same thing from the other side, isn't it - everyone must believe what I believe.

Just as people who ridicule faith are saying everyone must believe what I believe.

If we could all accept that everyone should believe whatever they want, that would be great! (Oh, except of course things like believing that god wants you to eat babies I've been on mumsnet long enough to know that someone will come back with yeahbutwhatabout...)

fwiw, I believe in God. I just don't believe in religion.

MillyR · 24/04/2010 23:32

Pixie, I am scared of the supernatural because I know many, many people who have supernatural experiences and been scared by it, or had problems coping with life as a consequence. I know a lot of people who go to church (am from a religious background) who have not had particularly intense supernatural experiences, and are more going along to church out of a vague sense of a comforting god, and some faith.

The church goers are often not accepting of the people who are having supernatural encounters. I can't say it in any way but a clumsy one. Some religious people remind me of people who go, 'ooh, wouldn't it be exciting to see a ghost.'

I think it generally isn't exciting to see a ghost, or be tempted by the devil in person, or see the virgin mary. I think it is terrifying and disturbing, so don't want my children to dabble in something that if you do experience it, may make your life very difficult indeed.

SolidGoldBrass · 24/04/2010 23:33

Nighbynight: As an atheist I would definitely support your right to wear both a cross and a headscarf in public places at least on your own time, especially as you might find that various believers would insist you wear one or the other and duff you up for refusing to choose between them.

nighbynight · 24/04/2010 23:33

DF - stop making claims for christianity, which you will then ridicule (like saying that christianity claims a god on a cloud that cant be proved).
christians are not necessarily people with all the answers - they are often the people with all the questions.

UnquietDad · 24/04/2010 23:33

nighbynight - no, again you're not getting it. It's almost like you are looking to be offended here.

I don't ask any person with a supernatural belief, to "put it away", and I'd certainly never suggest that anyone removes a cross or a headscarf. What crosses the line is when their irrational belief is used in order to tell me (or my children) what to do, or impinges on the way you think we should lead our lives.

Do you see the difference?

(This includes people telling me they will pray for me.)

BitOfFun · 24/04/2010 23:34

Have just seen the 'moral framework' remark. I am quite offended by that actually.

ooojimaflip · 24/04/2010 23:35

Pixieonaleaf - I don't believe there is a god as I don't see any evidence for it. That doesn't mean I don't believe in the possiblity of one. Anything is POSSIBLE - especailly given an omnipotent progenitor. Just not likely. Or relevant.

DuelingFanjo · 24/04/2010 23:36

"DF - stop making claims for christianity, which you will then ridicule (like saying that christianity claims a god on a cloud that cant be proved).
christians are not necessarily people with all the answers - they are often the people with all the questions. "

me?

onagar · 24/04/2010 23:36

nighbynight, you have just demonstrated one reason religion is dangerous by claiming that those who do not share it don't have morals.

boiledeggandsoldiers · 24/04/2010 23:36

I disagree UQD, the default position is a neutral one, i.e. an open mind.

A good example of this is a research team that decided to use the latest genomic technologies to see if there were any previously undiscovered viruses. They found one. The virus existed before the experiment proved its existence, but they identified it due to improvements in the methods used.

If they followed your logic, they wouldn't have bothered to do the experiment.

I haven't a clue what method I would use to prove or disprove the existence of God. There are too many gaps in our knowledge, and I have no axe to grind against believers of any sort, so for now I am happy to sit on the fence.

Anyway, I'm off to bed. Night all.

PixieOnaLeaf · 24/04/2010 23:37

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nighbynight · 24/04/2010 23:37

Oh thats big of you SGB, Im allowed to wear them during my leisure hours?

there are millions of happily tolerant religious people around, it is not at all likely that I will be "duffed up" by another religion for wearing the wrong religious symbol. In the UK, its far more likely, that I will be duffed up by an atheist, for wearing a religious sympbol at all (and yes, they do attract physical violence).

DuelingFanjo · 24/04/2010 23:38

nighbynight

do you mean me when you say 'DF'?

I've made about 5 posts in this thread and think you may have confused me with someone else who has said something I haven't said about clouds and stuff? [hmmm]

ooojimaflip · 24/04/2010 23:38

Pixieonaleaf -

Africa - Some evidence
God - No evidence

Therefore my confidence level in Africa is higher that that in God.

Simples.

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