In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

[Alouiseg]

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

have no problem with religion.do have problems if applied and implemented in draconian illiberal manner to encourage compliance and stifle inquiry

UQD, at what level does the amount of evidence constitute fact?

Short of watching a man operate on someone's brain, can you ever know he is a brain surgeon?

Or do you believe he is one, based on the amount of evidence?

unquietdad, there's no need to be patronising. I am a the CEO of a science based organisation. I have spent many years designing experiments and examining evidence in an objective manner. I like to think I am good at it.

I repeat my question, what is your methodology?

Well, there is the small matter that I could, if I asked, and once the necessary clearances had been obtained, go and watch him operate on someone's brain if I ever had any doubts. That possibility is at least open to me.

Milly, even a sixth former might concede that reality is limited by experience.

Tethersend, the point is that the natural world is all around us, and whether at home or school, we can experience it, observe it, and make predictions which help us understand life.

Spiritual people can also use the supernatural in addition to the usual cultural and material experiences, but the supernatural requires an entirely different way of thinking and is not comparable to how we understand the concept of Africa. I am not attempting to undermine spiritual experience, but simply say that our ways of making sense of it are totally different to our ways of understanding material reality.

Does it matter? I mean does it really matter? what other people believe? Why do they have to be wrong and ridiculous and deluded and so on? If someone else believes in god and it makes them happy, how does it hurt anyone else that they need to try to take that away from them?

Sorry milly, I was trying to lighten the mood somewhat - clearly failed. Will Go Away and Try Harder.

Yet most people don't request that UQD and operate on trust.

I am annoying myself now. I think I'll go to bed.

I don't even believe in god.

UQD - not true. Part of constructing the moral framework, is regularly thinking about it, and reminding yourself. It isn't just something you construct when you are twenty and read the just so stories, and then don't change.

If you see someone doing bad things, harming themselves or others (without breaking the law), and believing that they are right, then judging by your last post, you wouldn't be allowed to show them a better way, because their belief set allows what they are doing, and their belief set must not be criticised.
I think that is wrong.

Also, atheists always hand out this line that they dont want anyone elses religion in their face, but they really seem to mean is that religious people have to practise their religion in private, because no religion must be seen in public, ie atheism must be the dominant public belief set.

It sort of matters if that religion makes them believe they have the right to stone adulterers to death etc though, I guess. Or more prosaically, shove unmarried mothers into Magdalen laundries etc, as happened her until fairly recently.

Thumbwitch, you did lighten the mood! I thought your post was entertaining.

"Does it matter? I mean does it really matter? what other people believe? "

Unfortunately yes, because their belief affects their actions. One minute they are believing in the duck and the next it's "duck ponds are sacred" or "schools must devote a minimum amount of time each day to duck worship"

If only they'd leave the rest of us alone it wouldn't matter to me at all.

THing is, there is NO evidence at all for the existence of gods. Or fairies, or ghosts, or that homeopathy works. There's plenty of evidence that gravity works. You can prove it yourself, right this minute. You don't have to go and find a second floor window to jump out of, you can demonstrate it easily enough by dropping a pencil.
Tethersend. there is plenty of evidence that brain surgeons in general do exist. So if the person you encounter who claims to be one is well versed in medical terminology, not obviously mad, has the full complement of hands and fingers, then it's well within the realms of probability that she is a brain surgeon. IF you happen to be in the position of needing an operation on your own brain, you might want a little more evidence ie the concurrence of other medical professionals that this individual is a brain surgeon rather than just taking her word for it and accepting that the hospital's a bit busy at the moment and therefore she's doing all her operations behind a skip in Iceland's car park...

to be fair I also think people who believe in a god are deluded. Though I tend to keep that opinion to myself as it upsets people.

boiledegg, I thought I had already explained my "methodology". (It's not "mine", anyway.)
I can't help getting a little defensive when I sense this is building up to a "painting into a corner" situation.

If there is no reason to believe in something, the default position is not to. Otherwise we'd have to go round believing in all sorts of crap "just in case".

This is why I do not believe that leprechauns, unicorns, invisible rhinoceroses in my back garden, fairies, vampires, ghosts, David Icke's giant lizards, auras, indigo children, faith-healing, psychics or gods exist.

Do you believe in any of these things?

The burden of evidence is on the person making the positive claim. I don't need to show that these things don't exist. The people who believe in them need to show that they do.

"the supernatural requires an entirely different way of thinking and is not comparable to how we understand the concept of Africa"

MillyR, I have neither observed nor experienced Africa.

Yet I believe it exists.

Why do you assume that the supernatural requires an entirely different way of thinking?

nighbynight - not true. I think you're missing a subtle difference. Atheists don't ask the religious to practise in private - we just ask that it shouldn't affect our lives.

And your moral framework can exist (and develop as you suggest) totally independently of belief in any fictional fables.

Have we got any film footage of Heaven, or relatives who bought a package safari there?

SGB, my point is that there is always an element of trust or belief, no matter how small, unless you have witnessed something (such as brain surgery in an Iceland car park) with your own eyes/ears etc.

Faith just requires a larger amount of trust and a smaller amount of evidence.

I think boiledegg is claiming Atheism is a religon as they are taking Atheism as the assertion that there is definitely no god of any sort. Which is an incorrect definition of Atheism. It's logically POSSIBLE that we are living in a computer simulation or that an all powerful god created the world 5 seconds ago or that I am a brain in a jar being fed stimuli by an evil scientist.

But as all these hypothesis are both un-testable and irrelevant (as there is no way reason to change your behaviour if one was true) they just don't matter.

It's logically POSSIBLE that Islam, Christianity or Scientology are accurate. But there is no evidence that they are so no reason to believe in them.

So I don't believe in any god. Therefore I am an Atheist.

(The simulation one is especially fun, as if a technology was developed that allowed a perfect simulation of the universe, then within that simulation there could be other simualations - that quickly leads to an infinite number of simualtions built on one base reality. So if it were possible then it would be almost certain that we live in a simulation)

thanks Milly!

I could knock some up, BoF... And I could find you some actors holidaymakers who have been there...

I think you're on dubious grounds with the Africa analogy, Tethers

There's an awful lot of witnesses to testify to having seen Africa. I myself have been there, seen it and know it exists. It's solid and real.

God on the other hand - there's no evidence to show that he exists at all.