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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

481 replies

Alouiseg · 24/04/2010 20:58

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

OP posts:
tootyflooty · 26/04/2010 13:42

faith is exactly that, you believe not because of hard evidence. I am catholic and believe everyone is entitled to follow their own faith as long as it means you live your life in a good decent way and you treat other people with kindness and respect. Fanatics who interpret their religion as superior and thinks it gives them the right to kill others are not religious , they are just evil people who use religion as a reason for their wrong doings. At the end of the day if you believe there are consequences for the way you live your life after you die, and it stops any one person from doing something really evil then how can it be a bad thing.

TheFallenMadonna · 26/04/2010 13:49

I don't understand why people ask people with a religious faith for proof. You know there is none, and you know also that that is exactly what "faith" is. We don't believe because we have objective evidence. We believe because we don't know if you like. We are all I think irrational in some ways. For some of us, that includes a religious belief.

UnquietDad · 26/04/2010 14:00

For my own part, I know full well there is no proof they can give, as fallenMadonna says.

I suppose I ask it as part of a process of gauging the extent to which the person has actually thought about their faith and how ridiculous it seems to outsiders. Some do, some don't. Some believers genuinely seem to think that their way is the only one which makes sense.

Some believers I speak to have genuinely never given any actual thought to the fact that, if you are not in their religion, their "god" is just one of a pantheon of supernatural items for which there is no evidence - and that to all intents and purposes their faith may as well be a superstition.

TheFallenMadonna · 26/04/2010 14:12

I'm not especially bothered how ridiculous it looks to outsiders TBH. I have of course thought about my faith, and asked myself why I believe in the absence of proof. I haven't got an answer to that one BTW, not one that satisfies me even, but it doesn't mean I haven't questioned it. I don't mind people thinking I'm deluded, although the word is obviously used with a bit of a curled lip. I'm not stupid, and I think it's a very weak argument to make. Neither do I think I am mentally ill. Although I think that is pretty hard to define and have in fact had some pretty interesting lessons with my sixth-formers as to what constitutes abnormal behaviour in which relgious practices have certainly come up. But I do take exception to being thought of as someone who just hasn't thought things through.

onagar · 26/04/2010 14:17

piscesmoon, you say "I believe in God, I don't believe in fairies" and that's fair enough. If you (or any religious person)can put into words why you don't believe in fairies it might sound just like the atheist position on god.

UnquietDad · 26/04/2010 14:20

I can understand that FallenMadonna. I suppose I'd invite you to think (or rather to say, as I'm sure you've probably thought about this anyway) of a list of non-proveable things you don't believe in, and to indicate why you don't believe in each of them.

Having done so, you've probably just shown why atheists don't believe in gods.

TheFallenMadonna · 26/04/2010 14:23

It's very easy for me to understand why atheists don't believe in God. It's much harder for mne to understand why I do. So we are in the same position really

UnquietDad · 26/04/2010 14:25

fair enough. It's not easy for everyone to understand atheism though! Some people just don't get it at all.

nighbynight · 26/04/2010 14:26

onagar
let me repeat, that I was talking about one aspect of joining a religion - not the whole story. I'd have written far more words if I were trying to describe all the reasons for joining a religion.

Part of going to church is indeed the pleasure of discussing, and listening to educated people talking about being a better person. Not the whole story, part of it.

TheFallenMadonna · 26/04/2010 14:29

Yes - so I see. Some daft comments on both atheism and belief on here.

runnybottom · 26/04/2010 14:29

I think religious people think that atheists are always having a go at them or being mean, when they aren't.
I'm an atheist, but I'm one that has studied religion and particularly the philosophy of religion. I do honestly think that it is a delusion, because I think you believe in something that isn't real, in the same way that I think that homeopathists are deluded and reiki practitioners etc. I don't think there is anything wrong with delusions though, and I see why it appeals. It must be comforting to have religious faith, and often there is a great sense of belonging and community.
It makes no difference to me what you beleive, its a personal thing, and I admire people with strong faiths and honest convictions.
What does make a difference is when other peoples religions take over culture, society, get involved in politics, affecting my choices and my life. I've got plenty of opinions on that and will argue them forcefully when appropriate.

I may think you are a little deluded, but that doesn't mean i think you are stupid or lesser. I don't really understand the mechanism of belief, but then I don't see the appeal of football either, and millions of people love that too.

TheFallenMadonna · 26/04/2010 14:36

Some of the posts on here are undoubtedly having a go.

I don't feel got at. I get annoyed at weak arguments, but that;s not quite the same thing.

And I think you would find me arguing the same point of view with respect to, for example, schools.

So I find your first sentence something of an exaggeration. There is no homogenous group of believers. Nor atheists I should imagine.

onagar · 26/04/2010 14:41

nighbynight, I understand you'd have other reasons to go to church. However on the 'going to develop a moral framework' point it seems to be just 'chatting with friends about morals' which anyone can do.

Therefore religion doesn't offer a significant advantage in that respect.

Oh and I agree with what runnybottom just said.

Even to not seeing the appeal of football.

nighbynight · 26/04/2010 14:53

Anyone can of course, go to listen to an atheist person talking about how to be a better person every week, and take part in discussions about how to be a better person - theoretically anyone can - but how many do in practise? almost none, of course. Sorry but you are wrong - being in a religion gives you a huge advantage in this matter.

DuelingFanjo · 26/04/2010 15:32

not everyone needs that kind of discussion on how to be a better person. Lots of people are able to work towards being better people without religion being involved. Honestly, they can.

you make it sound as if you think anyone who doesn't is a little bit of a worse person than someone who does.

onagar · 26/04/2010 15:36

There are already such discussion groups. They are called 'coffee mornings' or something similar, but I doubt they make extravagant claims about their effect.

Also you may not have noticed, but most christians (it might be different for muslims as they seem to take it more seriously) just go to church once a week (or once a year), doze through a sermon and sing a hymn.

runnybottom · 26/04/2010 15:40

It isn't a matter of fact, its a matter of opinion, nightbynight. You are not morally superior to me because you go to church.

nighbynight · 26/04/2010 15:47

runnybottom, you are the one who brought up the word "superior", not me.

I already commented on the points raised in teh last 3 posts earlier in the thread.

GrimmaTheNome · 26/04/2010 15:50

Having just found this thread, I'm delighted how much time I've saved myself this weekend by not having been on my computer

Being in a religion does seem to help some people behave better than they might withou tit. But it also seems to make some behave far, far worse than if they were responsible for their own ethics.

As to the title of the thread - I can only speak from my own experience, I used to be a committed Christian but now I'm convinced that faith was a delusion. I wasn't mad, I wasn't bad, but I was brought up believing in something which I believe does not exist. I think I'm a more ethical person now than then because I'm now fully accountable to my own conscience - I have to do right because I know it to be right, and if I do wrong there's no divine get-out-of-jail-free card.

CheerfulYank · 26/04/2010 16:03

The thing of it is, what's the point? I believe in a Greater Presence with all my being, and am likely to continue to do so. Darling tin and uqd are unlikely to ever do so, and what of it? We agree that Buffy is cool, and that's good enough for me.

If someone wants to have a frank, openminded discussion that's fine but if, like in the OP's case, someone wants to just stir the shit, what's the point? We're unlikely to change each other's minds, let's just leave it and get on with our Mondays in peace.

mathanxiety · 26/04/2010 16:10

Well said, CheerfulYank.

piscesmoon · 26/04/2010 19:11

' I have to say you are starting to sound a bit sinister. '

All I am saying is that people are free to have their own beliefs and there is no need to impose on others-I fail to see why that is sinister.

'piscesmoon, you say "I believe in God, I don't believe in fairies" and that's fair enough. If you (or any religious person)can put into words why you don't believe in fairies it might sound just like the atheist position on god. '

The whole point is that I don't have to say why I believe in God and why I don't believe in fairies. I have no wish to convert anyone to my way of thinking-I just resent OP, and others, having made up their mind then telling the rest of us that we must think the same or we are deluded and oppressed. The oracle has spoken and we all jump to it! This is the reason why I always get involved in these debates, which are a complete waste of time! I think DCs deserve more than 'mummy has spoken and mummy is right'!!

howmuchdidyousay · 26/04/2010 19:13

I beleive in god and have (enough for me) evidence of Him working in my life.
There are so many things as humans we don't understand(take quantum physics for example) that I don't think god is so hard to believe.How did the universe begin, how did life start without some creator ?

lovechoc · 26/04/2010 19:20

have agnostic views myself but don't grudge those who believe in God. it's up them and it's called having faith at the end of the day isn't it? there's no proof but having faith is what matters.

Onestonetogo · 26/04/2010 19:31

YANBU.

Imo religion, just like other stuff such as politics, should be challenged, discussed and made fun of. Because, let's be honest, some religious ideas are plain ridiculous, I don't see why we shouldn't be allowed to ridicule them.

As for the believers, of course they should be free to worship whatever god or gods they want to, as long as they don't start interfering with school curriculum, for example, or interfere with law-making process.