In thinking that people with faith or religion are deluded?

[Alouiseg]

This stems from another couple of threads i'm on but until God can be proven isn't religion just an outdated patriachal method of control?

Science. Reason. Logic. Experience.

Not faith. Faith is about suspending logic, and circumventing reason. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that, but its not applicable to atheism.

Sorry - see I xposted in the middle of something

You're avoiding the issue - for atheism to be true you need to be able to demonstrate that god does not exist, otherwise it is just belief.

To Duelling Fanjo: I have no idea why I still believe. I was brought up in my faith. But so were many people who no longer believe. I have questioned it of course. And had many crises of faith. Am having one now in fact. How any Catholic could not be having a crisis right now is beyond me frankly. But the belief is still there, despite my best efforts almost. Irrational, literally.

what about those atheists who have never had any religious upbringing and who don't even know anything at all about god or gods?

DF are they atheists or agnostics?

biddyofsuburbia - that could all be true but they would still be deluded and have lost some of their critical facilities from the standpoint of someone who doesn't believe in god.

I think people are getting hung up on the emotional baggage of the word 'deluded'. I think religous people are deluded, they think I am. This is FACTUAL, but not necessarily very helpful.

oojimaflip - you are posting as if your viewpoint is indisputable, this is not the case. If you believe that god does not exist provide some evidence, otherwise it is just faith.

Faith is believing in the unbelievable.

That is why it is called faith. To be called deluded or nuts is quite funny really.

For someone to have reached the point in their lives where they say, right this is it, when we die, we are finished is really sad. Even if that is true, it's nice to believe that there is a spirit/God/other person somewhere that cares whether we are nice to each other or not.

Redbindippers - No. I'm saying I don't believe in a god. This is indisputable. It is my mental state. This does not say anything about the actual existence of a god. I am agnostic about that - in the absence of evidence a remain an atheist.

Oh and if it makes you think once before you make an action that might hurt someone else (it certainly has me), it's not a bad thing.

This one is as old as the hills and is a perfect example of the "painting into a corner" school of sixth-form debate I mentioned earlier.

It is not philosophically or rhetorically possible to "prove" a negative. You can't "prove" that there is no such thing as n Invisible Pink Unicorn. (All you can demonstrate is that you can't see it, so there is always the outside possibility that it exists.) Therefore it is not expected that the person countering the claim should provide proof. The burden of proof is on the believer.

And, because we atheists are jolly nice people who like to give you a headstart, we don't even ask for proof. All we ask for is a shred of evidence.

See Bertrand Russell's Celestial Teapot for further musings on this.

Redbindippers - see the Atheism thread for Atheist/Theist, Agnostic/Unagnostic semantic argument.

Before any one replies to Unquietdad by saying their faith is proof. I need to point out that it is not proof of any kind and is only symptomatic of your personal beliefs.and thus cannot be used as evidence for God. Not least because it can be balanced out of the debate by My faith in the non existence of God.

Glad we have that cleared up. Now, any one got any thing?

Why am I always missing when there is a decent bloody debate going on? On Mondays do we have to go back to talking about MILs, weddings and playdates ??

I understand fully that some people have a faith and some people equate it to imaginary friends and fairies. There will always be those who have to have proof i.e use their senses to know that something is there and there will always be those who are searching for a spiritual side and are not constrained by their senses.
What I don't understand is why anyone sees the need for everyone to think the same. It is as if we are supposed to say 'Gosh,OP, Oh wise woman-you can't see a God therefore he doesn't exisit and we are all oppressed-we just needed you to point it out'! Your DCs may go, while young, for 'Mummy says something, so therefore Mummy is right'. The rest of us-hopefully are more questioning and we come to different conclusions. They are not right or wrong-they are right or wrong for us.
It really shouldn't matter-even within the same family-as to what personal beliefs are and there is no need for anyone to try and impose their own belief ,or lack of it, on anyone else.
Religion has been with us for thousands of years and has withstood any attempt to stamp it out. Some of the finest minds in history and today have a faith. Some astronauts have a faith, some scientists have a faith. Faith isn't something that has to be proved or disproved or ridiculed. Agree to differ and leave it alone. If you think people with faith are deluded that is your prerogative, it is not your prerogative to expect them to see it your way-because you are right.

We can all go back to MIL,weddings and playdates now, mamsnet!!

'A delusion, in everyday language, is a fixed belief that is either false, fanciful, or derived from deception'

This is the Wiki definition for delusion. Now I personally would say that a lot of the aspects of religion do count as fanciful (rise from the dead anyway, virgin birth, just from christianity we can see a few bits which are a bit )

'False' well a lot of religions come down quite hard on 'false gods' however I also think you have to have faith to be religious and a central tenet of faith is that you have to believe something without firm evidence and in that case there is always the chance you are wrong.

'Derived from deception' well I would say, that centuries ago, many aspects of science and demonstrations thereof would be considered 'miracles'. So many religions may have been founded on misunderstandings or deceptions (however motivated). Doesn't mean they are a bad thing. The tooth fairy probably isn't a bad thing, it helps children deal with a transitional process.

I am a secularist. I have absolutely no problem with people who are religious. I will support your right to worship whatever you like. I just don't want to have it in my life or that of my kids (until they are old enough to make that decision for themselves).

I think that privately you can think whatever you like, YABU to think the religious are deluded and under the strict definitions of the term, you are probably right.

However it doesn't matter what you think of everyone else ATEOTD, all that matters is your behaviour.

What whomovedmychocolate said! That is what I was trying to get at really. I just think 'deluded' implies that something is negative and it doesn't have to be. I think we are probably all deluded about something - or at least other people would think we were if they could see all our innermost thoughts and beliefs.

'PinkoLiberal, that school is getting funding from the church (am assuming it's a church school), you should tell them off. Church schools have more funding than normal schools as although the church promises to pay 30%, they often pay above that. Why wouldn't they - it means more money in their coffers as the children become us!'

ours in enowed

that emans that if the kids from reception up pass an exam each year they get funds

am presuming that the fund was hit byu interest rates as its gone into massive panic mode financially: Head ahs pulled SEN budgets, sacked all TA's etc. It's still not a poor school though- or if it is they should bloody well sort tehmselves out as they ahd a £45k surfeit 2 years ago.

They also have a ban on having a PTA and no fundraising events: I'd happily have joined up to save the TA's. There have even been occasions where I have goone in to read and been handed a child with severe SN as his TA is off. now, I have quite a lot of SN experience, but nonehtless I am not certain the head could possibly nkow this given she is referred to as the invisible women and I have never yet had a convo with her *she holds an annual ocffee morniong to talk to apernts but its sibling free so a no-no for us)

And the exams- ! We have this assessort come in. Lst year's report got shirty that no emntion of God had been amde in a maths lesson for 20 minutes and finished with a suggestion that if he was required to assess next eyar, could the Head administer hemlock first.

Good to know the sane people are kept away from the kids then

And the funny thing is, far from being anti faith I was going to train as an RE teacher when ds3 was dx'd with ASD and I had to pull out. But I am of the learn about the people of the world and you will learn tolerance and not fear ilk. Not the how many can we brainwash before brekky then? variant. And teh really, really ironic thing? Both my faith - rasied kids ahve decided they don't beleive any mroe since the fundamentalist stuff started. Typical!

(sorry rant)

And YY to deluded doesn't have to be soemthing negative. I quite understand why someone with no faith doesn't want it enforced on them, but I still like the thought that there are people out there getting a bit of comfort that they may not have, fiding a big social circle or geting invovled with some stunning charity works; the Church (and all otehr faiths ime) are a powerful network to get things done, and enable people to meet inj a way tehy may not otherwise. I suspect the people that get invovled would be charitable anyway, but it is easier if tehere's a group of you and a formet for getting involved.

Having faith means believing without proof!
That is what faith is about.

Even if some people might think it is ridiclous etc etc for me personally it has given a LOT of strength in difficult times. It brings calm into my life that all will be as it should be.

Therefore if you need proof you will never have faith...

Picesmoon.

Still at it I see,

Sorry but having listened to you quite a bit on this and similar subjects, I have to say you are starting to sound a bit sinister.

The idea that we should let something that in many ways equates with mental illness simply pass, that we should feel a burden of proof to prove a negative, that we must let our children be indoctrinated, and that it reason and thought must be put on a par with superstition, is all a bit creepy.

But your best one is the assertion that the many great minds who share the madness lend it weight. Sorry but I would be asking those "many great scientists" where is the proof? If you have such Intellectual heavyweights in your corner, why do you still need faith?

That is what I see in your "sweep it under the rug" approach, and worryingly I think you genuinely don't know you are doing it.

Piscesmoon,

I thought what you wrote was great!

I'd say generally YANBU, and I do think that religious belief is mostly delusion.

But on the other hand, it does have a positive side. Both of my grandmothers believe that when they die, they will be reunited with their husbands.

Which I guess is very comforting for them. To me, it's delusion but it isn't one I'd want to contest if their contentment is at stake.

It's only when I see religion used as a harmful thing that the delusion side seems like a problem. But lots of people use religion in a good way.