To think this is vile

[RedRedWine1980]

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1267500/Meet-SWAGS-Service-Wives-And-Girlfriends--cheeky-n aked-calendar-raised-26-000-Help-For-Heroes.html

Money raising or not- urghh, just urrrghh.

"jugs" Very ick.

As in "Get your jugs out for the lads"?

But it doesn't matter, it's for charity.

no, seeker...it's for "kelly's" glamma career...

Yep, I realise that AF, but I would have lost what I'd typed if I'd gone back and checked who called me uneducated (think it was Mal), and inferred that I was not decent (LRD I think). Apologies - we are an hour later than you and I am tired.

Well - like scaryteacher, I wasn't reminded of Schindler's List by the picture with the guard dog. I didn't know about the SS guards' dogs being trained to rape women - and whilst I agree that that is absolutely horrifying, I find it hard to believe that anyone would know that and then set up the shot that is being discussed.

Knowing now about the SS guards, I would have to agree that that picture is not a good idea, and it is bad that no-one picked up on the symbolism that some here have seen so clearly.

WRT the calendar as a whole, I think that people are going to have to agree to differ. I don't think I am a bad person because I don't find the calendar vile, nor would I agree that those who do dislike it are repressed or humourless. We are all intelligent people who have minds of our own, and therefore may have differing opinions.

no problem, scary, thanks for acknowledging

go and get some kip

Mmmm, AF, trying to write a tactful note to parents about how their daughters dress for a school club with which I am involved!

The thing is, I would hazard a guess that a lot of the people who bought this calendar bought it to support the cause, rather than to ogle "kelly's" tits- surely if tit-ogling is your thing, it would be cheaper to buy The Sun (spit) and ogle a different wannabe glamma model every day of the year? I would guess many of the calendars sold WON'T be displayed at all.

the depressing fact is that thousands of young girls are desperate to be glamour models/ WAGS/ pop stars, because those are the people they percieve as admired and well-paid, therefore in their minds attractive. We seem to be breeding a generation of young women who think that being thin, pretty, blonde and sexy is the key to a fabulous life and a lucrative future, without actually putting in a lot of work. I don't believe that this is down to charity calendars like this but rather to the abhorrent Celebrity Culture we seem to have developed over the last decade. The Sun and its ilk have been around since I was a girl, but few girls in my generation aspired to become a Playboy centrefold. I just don't know what has gone wrong, and why today's society seems to be so obsessed with fame for fame's sake. I feel glamour modelling is seen as the back door to "fame" and that's why it's so attractive to young women. I would cheerfully ban 'sleb magazines. It's nothing really to do with what men want- it's what the media want, and they convince us all that we want it too, and THAT really pisses me off.

scary, it is late, you are tired, we came to a truce

but

do you not see the irony in your last sentence ?

On that note, I will give you the last word, because I am doing my hot water bottle for bed and I am bushed. Goodnight x

Of course I see the irony - I typed out and then deleted a rant about the whole issue; but there is a difference in my head at least between my supporting the rights of grown women who have decided to strip off for what I perceive to be a good cause (and the WI set the precedent!); and my role as the person responsible for the safety and well being of these girls, whose parents will be on my case if anything inadvertent or adverse happens to their daughters; and as the mum of one of the lads who also attends the activity.

If you can get what I mean from that you are more awake than me. Enjoy the hot water bottle. It's cold again in Belgium, my car looked like it did at Christmas this morning.

can't you hold one viewpoint while respecting the other? Why is everyone obsessed with getting others round to their way of thinking?

This sort of calendar is not my bag at all, but if it's yours, go ahead. I don't get you, but that's what makes people interesting

mary, it's called debate

Woman are always going to be a fine body art in any public display, woman WANT to be viewed, their is a demand for this, and that demand will be always wanted!

I dont get all the outrage for this, YOU as a person may not agree with this business, but neither are you going to stop people WHO WANT to be seen like this!!!!!

Thats the thing though- not all women do. But while we have lovelies like the girls who bare it all in the name of charity (or for any reason)we will never get away from being expected to be happy with constant objectification. We are not works of art we are women, equal to men with opinions and self worth. The more people who DO object to it sit back in the shadows and 'get a life' the more it just goes on unchallenged.

"I don't believe that this is down to charity calendars like this but rather to the abhorrent Celebrity Culture we seem to have developed over the last decade."

Unfortunately the likes of Jordan, who are given excessive publicity, become 'slebs - but for what? Just like Russell Brand, someone "outrageous" only needs a few minutes on TV or in the mags/ papers and then others want interviews and photos... a big (silly) media circus develops and the limited "talent" gets ego boosted to go further.

"I would cheerfully ban 'sleb magazines. It's nothing really to do with what men want - it's what the media want"

hence the way they compete for 'exclusive' photos, whether from the paparazzi or the 'famous' weddings...

chicken and egg - while the media serve up things we "buy" they will continue, and probably get worse, the way "lads mags" have developed from cars and clothes (I guess) to "babes" across the front covers. (Perhaps you can tell that I've never bought any of those mags in my life.)

It's just tedious in my view. Any cause or charity now thinks....hmm lets have a naked calendar. Boring.

Fed up of the constant ojectification of women's bodies whether for charity or not. Women who are daft enough to go along with it....well they probably think it's empowering. Maybe they need to think about the bigger picture.

As for the argument....'well it's for a good cause'.............well that makes everything Ok then doesn't it.

Wow, I thought that people were reading too much into it yesterday but I'm a bit that some of us are trying to link the dog picture to the SS dog incidents, which were appalling. I've seen Schindler's List and I didn't make that association. Not because I'm uneducated or naive but because it's a charity calendar being sold to raise money for the British forces and I find it very difficult to comprehend that they would set up such a picture with the intention of insinuating the rape of women by SS dogs.

I think that some posters on this thread a) read way too much into things and b) have very sick minds to make this association.

You're whining about being tarred as joyless harpies. There's a reason that you are being thought of this way by some others. Your feminist rants are misguided. Try aiming them at women who are genuinely being exploited and objectified instead of at some girls who are more than willing to be objectified. Like I said before, it's not my bag but it's also not my bag to be po-faced about adult women making adult decisions for themselves. If you find it offensive, don't look. Simples.

Probably been said but yes lots of women go along with, and enjoy getting their tits out, lap dancing, blah blah. Not everyone is forced into this kind of think obviously.

However, isn't it about the wider picture, about how women are viewed by society that creates this role for women? Why is it that some women seem to think getting naked to please men is a good thing?

Women are raped, exploited, forced into porn and prositution, mrdered, trafficked, earn less then men generally all over the world. This is universal. Fair enough a few women getting their bits out on a calendar is low down on the spectrum but don't really understand how women don't see that it's all part of the same bloody thing at the end of the day.

God - I need to get off this thread. So bloody depressing. I don't care if I am a joyless harpie. At least I'm not deluded.

Fiftot, you are deluded if you think that having your bottom be photographed for a calendar is comparable with women being trafficked for sex/raped/forced into porn.

Perspective. Get some.

Me deluded I don't think so............I have alot of perspective thanks and of course it's not comparable but it's part of the same flipping ideology - which was my part.

But hey go ahead and simplify the argument if it makes you feel better.

Yeah it's all part of the same thing yada yada yada.

Except it's not. Is it?

I see none of the pro-calendar people have a reasonable answer to what effect this has on sexual equality within the forces.

I have posted several links showing a climate of sexual harrassment, discrimination and assault suffered by a large proportion of women within the armed forces. The unwanted display of pornography and sexual material was clearly listed as a factor.

But as long as the lads are happy, eh?

Well I'd love to hear your argument about how it's not part of the same thing but tbh I think I know how it goes so forgive me for not getting into it.

Depressing that women have bought into the same ideology.

Carmen, am I missing the point when I say that none of "the lads" will be buying the calendar? I kind of assumed that it would be bought by non-forces men/women?

CSD you are wasting your time- people are too keen to sit back and 'do it for their country' so to speak, the men probably make them feel 'now now little woman, dont make a fuss, smile and look like you are enjoying it'
Its quite frankly depressing.