about vegetarians?

[iwastooearlytobeayummymummy]

Now if you a vegan, respect to you and your choice. You have obviously considered the whole food chain as it works in the UK and set out your stall.

If you don't like the taste and texture of meat, or can't afford it, well, fair enough.

If for religious reasons your diet is a manifestation of your belief, I understand.

But if you don't eat meat because you don't like the idea of eating baby animals,but you continue to use dairy products then I just need to know why? Are you ignorant or just sentimental?

I DO eat meat b/c I like (often love!) the taste, as well as the convenience, and yes, it is habit, too.

I eat organic and free-range, and I'm perfectly content with my choice.

I honestly agree with some others who think that if you're concerned about welfare and the suffering and death of animals, there is far more value in rejecting diary and eggs than in rejecting meat - if you eat FR/ organic.

Just my opinion.

I find it astonishing how ignorant many people are about livestock and food production, but in this case that includes the OP. There are many ways of farming, and humans have done this in a variety of ways. The idea that the only way of dairying is by removing a young calf from the mother is nonsensical. In primitive breeds of cattle, if a young calf is removed, the mother simply stops producing milk, and so cannot be used for dairying. Dairying would never have been invented if the only way to do it was by removing a young calf.

The fact that modern, industrialised dairy farming is often unethical is not the fault of the consumer - it is the fault of government planners and regulators. Cows do not to have a calf every year to produce milk - they need to have a calf that often to provide milk in the daily yields demanded by agro-business. So if anyone is to blame, it is supermarkets for driving down prices.

I am a vegetarian, although my children eat organic meat. I am vegetarian for a range of reasons - many to do with ethical treatment of humans and the environment rather than the fate of domestic livestock. I certainly don't agree with consuming large quantities of soya and think there are some ethical issues with veganism. Meat eating is the most ethical choices in some countries with different environments.

In terms of animal welfare, vegetarianism reduces the number of animals killed for my personal use, given that I have to eat from the limited choices provided for me by agro-business. A goat produces more than enough milk for a family, never mind a cow. So for me to make sure the hypothetical calf is used rather than wasted, I would need to eat (based on average milk yield of modern cattle) one sixteenth of a male at maximum size (say about 30-36 months). Well, most meat eaters eat a lot more meat than that, which is a huge waste of resources.

I think what people should attempt to do is try to be vegan one or two days a week, in order to reduce consumption, rather than give up animal products entirely. We can also choose the vegetarian option when we don't know the provenance of our meat. In my case I'd rather my children ate my share of the meat, as they are growing and are less likely to eat the varied diet that I do.

'just let them go, leave them to their own devices, and let nature take it's course.

I love the idea of all these feral animals roaming around the countryside!!-or I would do if it wasn't a cruel idea to let them get food rot, infested with maggots, attacked by dogs etc. Man has been farming since they settled in one place and stopped hunter gathering and man and animal has adapted over the 100 of years. Of course they can be humanely killed-this means it is stress free and they are killed locally. I go to my farm shop and can see them in the fields-soon they will be in my oven-that is their purpose. I am very pleased that the headmistress who slaughtered the lamb was reinstated, after all the fuss died down. My secondary school had a farm years ago and the animals were killed for meat-they were not pets. We were country DCs and we understood this.When I was a child and we were having chicken for dinner my aunt went out and killed one. I didn't watch but I knew what happened. She had a whole coop of turkeys-they had a limited life span.
Meat free Monday may have alliteration in its favour but the person who thought it up ought to have got advice-every Monday our meal is made up of what was left over from Sunday-shepheed's pie, chicken risooto etc. It is the one day that is not going to be meat free. I think it is such a shame that people are so far removed from food production that they think pigs can be turned loose to fend for themselves!

Just to clarify, Milly, I refer only to countries who are blessed enough to have plentiful food supplies - WE, in this country, do have that choice. I already stated that should my life depend on it, I would eat meat. So in developing countries, where it is do or die, then I think yes, we as humans have the benefit of being able to hunt animals with more than our bare hands, fine. That said, it would be a last resort for me. I also think with the help of charities such as www.vegfamcharity.org.uk, we can help set up societies where people are able to rely on plant-based diets to sustain themselves and their families.

What are your ethical concerns about veganism?

Unethical farming IS the fault of the consumer - if we weren't all so damn greedy, there'd not be the demand to produce so much milk.

sorry 'foot' rot.

Sorry about the other mistakes-typing at speed!

piscesmoon, I guess we just disagree and won't see eye to eye on this. I do believe animals would survive, I do believe we have done them a great disservice and should help get them back into the wild where they belong, set them some decent space, and stop slaughtering them merely so our tastebuds are sated.
I will never believe that slaughtering an animal for YOUR taste preferences is humane. It's unnecessary and therefore cruel. I can't call that humane.

But I've already said that, you've already said you disagree, so we''ll have to leave it there.

Meat-Free Monday is just an idea suggesting meat-eaters give up meat at least one day a week - fine, if Monday's don't suit you, but you agree with the principle, then choose Tuesday instead.

Ab, sorry for any confusion, but my post wasn't in response to you. I actually meant that people who are vegans could commit to being vegans for two days a week. I didn't mean to suggest that vegans should stop being vegan.

Meat eaters, vegetarians and vegans can all make ethical decisions within their range of dietary choices. Once someone becomes a vegan, they can make further ethical choices about their diet, and I am not convinced that I would make them ethically. For example, I feel I would use more imported products with a higher carbon and water footprint if I was a full time vegan.

That is not meant to be a criticism of vegans in general, but of my capability to balance my moral responsibilities.

That seems a very sensible idea AbFabT-not one that people usually take. I am quite happy for people to be vegetarian, I just think we should live and let live (people that is -not the animals!). I eat a lot of vegetarian meals and always have-I just think that the idea might have had more hope of succeeding if the person who dreamed it up had understood what happens to the Sunday roast on a Monday.

Hi all

It's the OP back here, come to apologise, and wearing a hard hat.

re-reading my post and subsequent comments I realise came over a very bolshy.

In RL i'm really not like that, but I am a very crap typist and find composing messages very difficult so tend to write quite briefly and it it appears too bluntly.

So sorry and thanks to those that have answered my questions, and contributed to my understanding.

I don't think I'll post here again,as can't help feeling a bit

I wouldn't worry OP-you have to be very thick skinned to start anything on AIBU. AbFabT is the first person that I have come across who has agreed to disagree-we should do it more!

thanks Pisces

i actually hid the thread for a few days but couldn't stop having peak today,

but am now going to hide again, as skin is a bit thin.

i must also remember never to post when in the grips of PMS

oh god live tompost another day.its only words ona screen.no one much remembers or cares who said what,when.and the loons who do care and remember arent worth bothering about

bloss bizarre x posts

Now hang on a minute, let me get my head round this. Sorry to harp on, but it's bugging me. I know it's off topic slightly. We should return all the farm animals to the wild. What wild? Where? The ones which did not starve to death slowly or die of footrot, flyblow and all the other things they would succumb to, would run the risk of being involved in rt accidents. There would be dead bodies of cows sheep and pigs everywhere. Herds of wild animals would roam free across gardens, motorways and farmland. Wild pigs in other countries are very dangerous. Ever heard of the White cattle on the chillingham estate? They have never been domesticated and are very very dangerous. It takes hundreds of years for species to adapt. You can't just release animals into the wild! This is unrealistic! And cruel. It would be better to shoot them all than let them go. Far better that people eat less meat and dairy and demand better animal welfare.

If I was a sheep I would prefer to be protected from predators, innoculated against desease, have my fleece removed when the weather gets hot, be fed in winter when the grass is under frost and snow and end my life early when fit and active- rather than take my chance with survival of the fittest, no medical help when injured or ill or with difficult lambing and have to dwindle into an unhealthy and painful old age.
Humans are fighting for the right to choose their own death, when the quality of life goes, and yet sheep would be expected to roam around with a declining quality of life because people want them to be free! It doesn't make sense.
I think it is out of sight, out of mind. As soon as feral pigs were roaming city streets in bands, foraging for food, there would be an outcry!

jurisfiction

maybe they'd have evolved if not trapped?

wild cows in india aren't there?

Have you seen the state of the wild cows in India? They would be much better off in an English field and indoors when the weather is bad-with food.

I think that the moment that your DC can't go outside for fear of feral pigs, would be the moment that you would think that setting them free wasn't a good idea!

They wouldn't need to evolve if not trapped, they were perfect for being wild! And it's not evolution that's the problem, it's it's the genetic modification, the inbreeding, the fast tracked human interference. Sheep have been selectively bred to produce more than one lamb for most profit! Ever tried to deliver twins or triplets when there are up to twelve long legs all tangled up in there! And, most importantly, if you release all the farm animals, you wouldn't get survival of the fittest. That happens in the wild, with wild animals. You would get thousands of animals totally unfit to survive unaided, abandoned into the open, with no hope of survival. Adaption and evolution doesn't happen overnight. It takes milennia! And once again, where is this 'wild'?

Itwastooearly... don't let it put you off, and good on you for saying sorry I have a wonderful friend who texts really bluntly but is completely different in person. Just have a check next time to make sure it's not blunt.

When I was cursed at on my 1st week on mn I was shocked, it can feel so real. Hope to come across you somewhere on here again, bye!

Milly, I did think that was what you were getting at re ethical - I have heard the argument before. Soya/tofu is invariably imported, and yes, we eat soya/tofu. I would like to point out though, according to the research I have done (and I do accept the information is varied, statistics differ slightly), but the majority of soya imported into this country goes into farmed-animal's feed (perhaps not the organic crew, but the majority of animals bred for slaughter are not organic). Soya is also found in a heck of a lot of products, not mainly veg*n ones.
Balance that on top of the vast impact farming animals has on our environment, soya aside, and my mind is clear that veganism is the environmentally-sound diet choice as well as the health-conscious and animal-welfare one. Soya-importation is the lesser of two evils.
On TOP of that, I've also read enough about soya to feel that it is very beneficial to our diets, so I include it for that, not just for the taste. I don't believe meat or dairy are as healthy for us. But I understand many people don't get that.

DH and I don't base our meals around tofu; mostly I cook fresh vegetables, grains and pulses, but I do top up with tofu products here and there, and yes, we have soya milk with our cereal.

piscesmoon, cool re agree to disagree.

jurisfictionoperative/piscesmoon, I stated I believe we have done these animals a disservice. I believe we owe it to them to help them back in the wild. I certainly don't expect it to happen overnight. But we should help them, and do what we can to make it happen. We still have open spaces that could be used for this purpose. Currently we must have millions of cows/sheep/pigs/chickens etc in farms - I am not suggesting we release every single one of them at once - but I do think there should be a solution to stop getting involved in their breeding, and return some to the wild, and stop with the greed of people wanting meat in every meal, every day.

And I completely agree with this:
"They were perfect for being wild! And it's not evolution that's the problem, it's it's the genetic modification, the inbreeding, the fast tracked human interference. Sheep have been selectively bred to produce more than one lamb for most profit!" - we should be ashamed of ourselves!

Not really sure how we think we are a nation of animal-lovers.

As for feral pigs, I'd be just as wary of dogs attacking me/other people/children, and don't really see the difference.

'They wouldn't need to evolve if not trapped, they were perfect for being wild!'

In the UK!! Where is the room?
I am not ashamed of breeding animals for meat. I think that people are taking a sentimental townie view. I grew up in the countryside. Farming isn't cruel if done with animal welfare as a chief concern.
The majority feel the same. My local farm shop is primarily a butchers, it opened about 18mths ago and has already had to expand. People want ethically produced local meat they don't want their DCs trampled by feral pigs in their local park!
Anyway will do the sensible thing and agree to differ.