to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

[nickschick]

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

Runnybottom,

You are wrong, to start with, it's taught not teached.

Every religion has it's own nutters.

I can't help the people who want to blow themselves up in the name of 'the lord'.

My experience of religion has been nothing but tolerance and love.

Little bit drunk there, spelling fails first. So how do you explain the millions of christians that are happy with the death penalty,and support various wars?
There are millions of christians that seem to thinks "killing bad, Except x y and z".
Not all about tolerance and love, really, is it?

And natural law...please!

So let me get this straight, morality is something taught by religion. Except when religion can be used to teach the opposite.

Therefore Christianity = great morality

Right Can anyone spot the error here..

Runnybottom, Natural Law is kinda important. (It's essentially the basis of western jurisprudence.)

I'm a Christian and thus do not believe in the death penalty.

And I'm American and don't believe in the death penalty. We're not all mad, you know!

Still looking at the articles and I'm sure there are more interesting bits, but the first thing I see is this.

"natural law is the rule of conduct which is prescribed to us by the Creator in the constitution of the nature with which He has endowed us"

So we were designed to be nice to each other?

That rules out Christianity taking all the credit if god made us naturally inclined to be nice to each other.

Also it didn't work did it.

It also brings me back to the Old Testament being quite in favour of slaughtering anyone who 'isn't on our side'.

Now I know the christians say that changed 2000 years ago, but that doesn't really fit in with god designing this natural law/rules of conduct at the moment of creation.

Like it or not, as I mentioned in my post of 15:26:28, Natural Law is fundamental to western society. Better minds than mine (or yours) have worked on the idea of morality for thousands and thousands of years. Christianity has lent its own very significant concepts and understanding of the meaning of life, and the nature of humanity to the theory.

"So we were designed to be nice to each other?
That rules out Christianity taking all the credit if god made us naturally inclined to be nice to each other.
Also it didn't work did it."
I understand from this post Onagar, that Christianity is the particular target of your petty cynicism, or your pet peeve, however you wish to describe it. It seems unreasonable to pick out one particular religious tradition for derision, when all of them advocate some view of morality, all acknowledge the contradictions and conflicts of the human condition, and all advocate a path to salvation or whatever, while all have many adherents who obviously are flawed humans.

Oh I consider all religions to be equal. Islam, Christianity,Hinduism, Paganism It's all the same to me. It means nothing to me whether your god has two arms, six or has roots.

But I'm speaking to Christians here. Some of whom were claiming that Christianity invented morality. Since Christianity is only 2000 years old (and wouldn't have been widespread at the beginning) and since as you say people have been working on morality for many thousands of years that is an unrealistic claim.

Also their implication seems to be that other countries have primitive morals because they have the wrong religion.

You say that Natural Law is fundamental to western society and your link appears to claim that this was designed in by god as a default. Those two things would seem to be contradictory as god would have made the other races too.

If by 'Natural Law' you mean 'Christian morals' then we are back to claiming Christianity invented morality. Not only is that unreasonable given the relatively short time Christianity has existed, the actual historical evidence does not seem to support it.

Keep reading the links I posted, Onagar..... You really might learn something.

The claims of Natural Law extend to every human on the planet, all humans of all races, on all continents. It is a theory about the nature of humanity, the meaning of life, the intrinsic striving for truth, justice and goodness by humans everywhere and at all times.

By Natural Law, I do not mean Christian morals. Do keep reading.

Well that's a helpful rebuttal

I suspect you regret already that I've been reading this thread so you might not want to encourage me.

I will assume you don't have an answer then to how 'Natural Law is fundamental to western society' makes sense when you directed us (so we could learn a thing or two) to a link that starts by saying it is the designed in default put there by god.

Maybe you should be educating the other Christians who seem to be talking about a different religion than you are.

There seems to be a general feeling that White Christians are basically more moral than the rest of humanity.

I don't think Jesus invented morality or compassion or what not, but I think He embodied it.

And no I certainly don't think that white Christians are more moral than the rest of humanity! (I know you weren't speaking to me, onagar, but I just wanted to get that in the open.

Have not read the whole thread, but YABU to expect everyone to conform to a minority superstitious view. We live in a multi-faith society and mercifully that also includes no faith. You are free to follow your religious inclination as is everyone, but that does not give you the right to impose it on others.

For what it's worth the Jesus in the bible comes across as a nice guy. Regardless of the truth or even his existence, we could do worse than be like that.

Mind you I've read some bits about Mohammed that made him seem pretty decent and sensible too.

By Onagar -- 'I will assume you don't have an answer then to how 'Natural Law is fundamental to western society' makes sense when you directed us (so we could learn a thing or two) to a link that starts by saying it is the designed in default put there by god."

This was my answer -- 'The claims of Natural Law extend to every human on the planet, all humans of all races, on all continents. It is a theory about the nature of humanity, the meaning of life, the intrinsic striving for truth, justice and goodness by humans everywhere and at all times.' (The Christian contribution to the theory, which is a major one, presupposes the existence of a Creator.)

There's more than one link, btw.

Onagar, you couldn't possibly have any basis for making your White Christian remark, since you have absolutely no evidence for it in the thread, nor do you know anything personally about any of the posters who have not set up profiles that you can check. A leap of faith?

And furthermore, I suggest you read more than just the first sentence.

Christianity is always patting itself on the back for making us moral, not just on this thread though it has been mentioned more than once.

Christianity has only existed as a strong force for good or evil for a small fraction of human history. Therefore I challenge the back patting on the grounds that people were working on morality and law long before it appeared.

If on the other hand (since there seem to be multiple versions of this opinion) the claim is that god built in the capacity for goodness then I'm pointing out that it would be in Hindus and Muslims just as strongly so still not christianity that gets the credit.

And once again a reminder that Christianity can hardly take credit for anything that god did before Christ since Christianity generally disavows any responsibility for the atrocities recorded in the same book as occuring before then.

I AM reading the rest of the articles. It will take some time as I can only spare a little time for it. I have got to the bit on the first one where it explains why the other Christian views on Natural Law are all wrong. Not quite sure who it is speaking for then, but we'll see how it goes.

Onagar, who mentioned white????

I stated that I believe that religion had a say in the start of civility and organisation.

I didn't say when either. The Old Testament, which is what I am referring to, started way before the New.

I am trying to imagine your average tribesman, giving a fuck because you stole his mammoth hide. He wouldn't, I imagine, he would kill your arse and eat your breasts - with toasted armadillo!

I suspect that nearly all religions started out with the giving of 'life rules' whether on a mountain or on a hill in Hull!

However, I do believe that religion started morality, whether it be Muslim, Hindi, Seikh or the terribly denounced Christians on this thread.

I am not saying that the Christian Faith is the saver of morals and that you need to be Christian/Hindu/Sikh/Muslim to be a good person. I am saying that the reason why you are a good person has to do with the inbuilt bits of you that were taught from a child were wrong. This was inbred from years of society, never mind where you lived.

Religion is cool. It taught us where we are at in my opinion.

Oh and the reason that Jesus/Mohammed appeared was to tell everyone that they were being a bit mad/norty and they should stop and go back to basics.

I don't say I agree with this, or whether anyone else should but the reason they appeared was to tell us all that we were not living as our God/creator thought we should, hence lots of people, doing diverse things and lots of separation. You agree/I don't/we do and so on and so on.

It's all about love & tolerance and those who are killing in the name of whatever God they worship are probably wrong if they are really taking part in whats written.

I have a Koran in the loft and have never read it, but I am assured from some of my friends that it pretty much says the same stuff as the Bible, just with different people.

Who cares anyway? Reading this thread, I think that we all want to go to people ruling people and not want to have any sort of spirituality at all and that's that.

It will fail. People have to be afraid of something other than the obligatory 3 months in jail for trying to kill someone. Or the 7 years for murder.

Religion in this sense, for me is good. I want my children to be afraid of what they cannot see or touch. It's always there and will never leave them. I don't care if it's a fairytale or a really good yarn. I am happy for them to be afraid for their souls like a good James Herbert novel. Maybe I am wrong as I have only found religion recently as the children go to a church school and if I am honest, I started to go to church to make sure they had a place.

Well, stone me and tell me I am bad. I really enjoy it and I love the lessons as it's teaching me all over again about tolerance and love.

I await the flaming.

I thought Jesus died on a stake of wood not a cross as commonly believed? I also thought that many Christian celebrations and festivals coincide with pagan ones because a Pagan King (Richard)? was forced into Christianity and as a final fuck you slipped many pagan traditions into the religion ? Such as Sunday worship ? I also thought it says in the Bible not to build places of worship or worship false deity's ? Can anyone explain!!

And we're right back to the same auld shite again.
Religion started morality? But you don't know which one, when or how?

And natural law is just a theory. Or more accurately, a lot of theories, some of which make a lot more sense than others. Depends really whether you are advocating for a Aristotlean Natural Law, or a Hobbseian version, or more likely for a modern christian, a version based in the writings of Aquinas? In which case you should really be more interested in the Divine and Eternal Laws. Perhaps an Augustinian natural law would suit you?

The problem with a lot of good theories though is when you hitch them to your religious wagon the scientifically minded can find them a lot less interesting.

They say that you should never discuss religion or politics at dinner parties. Well I can tell you that at ours we do just that. We do the 'is there or isn't there a God'!!

I prefer to believe that there is something other than just being chopped up and burnt or if not that, then cut up and roasted!!!

I don't think that you should either.

What I do think you should observe after living in a very civilised country is to OBSERVE the days of prayer. There are TWO - TWO, nothing really, but Fuck me all of you are kicking off over TWO DAYs that you probably celebrated up until now with eggs, presents and loads of wrapping paper and jollies to the pound shop for stocking fillers.

Let leave this as it is. I don't want to change it. If you do, then you will probably get your way as the UK is shit now anyway; all of our young people are emigrating to Aus/NZ/Canada..............

I have to stay in this country because we are to old to emigrate. So I will vote with my heart this time. Also with my faith.

I don't want to stop religious people observing their special days. I only mind that they expect me to do so as well. I mind people telling me if I'm not christian I shouldn't be celebrating xmas with food and presents when it was that kind of celebration BEFORE the christians came along.

The fuss about opening days for shops is a red herring since no one really cares that a million other workers can't take that day off. Its not about the workers. It's about the outrage that unbelievers should be allowed to do normal things on a Christian special day.

As for my 'white christian' comment I'm not suggesting anyone on this thread said 'white' but referring to the general assumption common in our society that western/christian morals are better than those 'in them forrin places where they don't know any better'

I've said that Christianity can't really take credit for morals since man was working on those long before jesus and that the OT which does go further back is hardly a moral guide being full of atrocities ordered by god.

I never meant to suggest that Christianity has no influence on our culture. Just for example many countries have been working to eradicate homophobia from their laws and cultures.

We have written evidence of the origins of that one don't we and last I looked the main organised resistance to removing this stain on our decency was religion.

So yes it has an effect, but I think it would be unreasonable to say it was always a good effect or the only one.