to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

[nickschick]

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

MrsCrafty My first thought on your post was "ah, fair enough" then I stopped and thought about.

Humans aren't the same as animals, at very base we are, but there are so many other things that differentiate us.

So that's not really a fair comparison, and actually detracts from the point about humans having morals with or without religion.

MrsCrafty, I don't think that animals go around killing each other willy-nilly. The killing that they do is pre-programmed into them, they mainly kill for food. As far as I know most fights within a species are not fights to the death, they are to establish dominance. Often fights between deers or lions are quickly settled by a display of dominance rather than sustained physical fighting, with one party quickly accepting defeat. I think all of this behaviour is programmed in by nature (or God who IMO created the laws of nature), and it is the same with humans. That is why murder amongst humans is an aberration, outside of war. I don't think that humans needed moral teaching to avoid murdering each other, because I think it was in-built behaviour. But, humans are more than animals, they have free will and are therefore more likely than animals to stray from the pre-programmed laws of nature. That is why I agree with you that one purpose of religion is to supply a moral teaching which reminds humans 'thou shalt not kill'.
I think that religion even threatens humans with the prospect of hell etc. if they break these moral laws, in order to frighten them to keep on the straight and narrow. I agree with you that one purpose of religion is to control people's behaviour through the fear of God's punishment. I think that a side-effect of the decline of religion is that much of this moral teaching is no longer influencing many young men in particular, and this is leading to more crime and breakdown of society, since the moral restraints on their behaviour are often no longer there.

Thank you Claig

Kaloki, what differentiates us from animals, putting aside primark & tescos.

What really stops us being like them and why???

excellent questions you are asking MrsCrafty, the more I think about them, the more fascinating they are.

the point, I feel, is it was her fil who made the comment, he knows his son is married to a catholic, and Easter is more important that Christmas in the religious calender ,so at least show her beliefs a little respect.

Claig, are you taking the piss?

Sorry Claig, genuine question?

MrsCrafty The whole way we do things is different. Invention is the main one, where the animal kingdom does what it needs (eat, sleep etc) we go beyond and create/analyse/etc.

"Easter eggs...pagan
easter bunnies...pagan
lambs and chicks and all...pagan. Do we give each other chocolate crosses? No."

How about Hallmark cards? Here's a chocolate cross, btw for you to feast your eyes upon. Google chocolate crosses -- they exist and they look delicious.

All the tat you mention has been around for, at most, a hundred years, and I think I'm being generous here. Of course, lambs, rabbits, chicks and eggs have been around much longer, but all the silly contemporary, commercial frippery is new. Celebrating Easter by the giving of eggs (which is by no means universal, or practised in every Christian household) does not reveal a single thing about the nature or origins of the holiday -- it says much about crass commercialism in our society.

Britfish: "but you cant say 'he died so our sins are forgiven'
because thats not a fact, thats part of faith." Please reread carefully what I said, which was that the writings about Jesus state that he died so that sons might be forgiven. I made no comment as to whether this, or resurrection, was an historical fact. What I said referred to records.

Onagar, I have claimed, and I am correct, that Easter is inextricably linked to the Jewish feast of Passover. Regarding killing, the New Testament is clear that the old law (OT) has been superseded.

sins, (and maybe sons too)...

not at all. I think these questions explore what morality really is and where it comes from

mathanxiety, thanks, i believe it was faddle who stated it as fact, thanks you!

i quite like this stuff about easter being a pagan holiday though. [although to be perfectly honest, on the day i dont care too much about where everything came from, i just want chocolate]

"Easter bunnies...pagan"
As I once stated to a pagan who took it with the good humour it was meant with, "You can worship the bunny all you like but I know I'm better off worshipping the guy who made the bunnies in the first place!"

It is true that some (not ALL) Christians do give eggs at Easter, I had a chocolate egg this Easter (God created chocolate, who am I to argue if it's egg shaped once a year?!), it has psuedo-become acceptable as the egg (as do the lambs and chicks) symbolises new life which is also what the ressurection of Christ symbolises. And before anyone yells at me from their high horse about this concept being "theft", it is not theft (Thou shalt not steal!) it is at worst "borrowing" and at best agreeing in part. But whereas some choose to worship nature or whatever (I'm afraid my full knowledge of other beleifs has slipped of late, though I did once read up on most major beleifs, and at this time in the morning is totally non-existant!) Christians give thanks to the creator of life, the one who gave us the nature in the first place. (Cue the mouthing off at me...but that is my final word as that is what I believe and I am sticking to it. Much as I do care what happens to my fellow human beings in the very end, I will not be drawn into a silly argument. Think what you like and we'll see who's right when the time comes )

mathanxiety - Good call on the chocolate crosses! I want one next year instead of a hollow, boring egg!

But Kaloki, why is it wrong. The animal world doesn't see killing as wrong? Are we not mere animals?

I don't believe there are morals in the animal kingdom, it's all a matter of life & death

if you had a dog, you'd know they have a sense of right and wrong, one that is trained into them. humans, as social animals, have right and wrong trained into them -in fact i find it very odd that anyone who has kids would argue for an 'innate moral sense' given the lengths we have to go to as parents to get our kids to ehav themselves.

mathanxiety I do beleive you are being wilfully obtuse. The commercialisation of the event has nothing to do with the origins of it, as I'm sure you know. Eggs as a symbol have been around for thousands of years, long before your religion found its way to these islands.
Its no real surprise that christians like to appropriate everything they possibly can as their own.
Apparently, according to latest posts above, the lack of christian morality is solely responsible for the decline of the country, and atheists have no morals, are animals, and would kill each other if christian morals hadn't influenced us. Yet still we're the ones who have no respect huh?

I believe that the core morality is innate. Animals instictively know how to behave because it has been programmed into them.
www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1187047/Animals-tell-right-wrong-Scientists-suggest-just-hum ans-morals.html
wild animals who have not been trained by man do not going around killing their own species.

It is also innate in humans, but humans can stray from it because they are not animals and have free will. That is why humans are socialised and taught morals to keep them on the straight and narrow. If a child is brought up in a family of thieves and murderers then it will follow by example and carry out similar behaviour. Animals do not act immorally in this way. That's why moral education is important for humans and "manners maketh man" and it matters how they are brought up. Religion was the traditional way that society used to imaprt this moral teaching to human beings. But since morality is innate, it doesn't mean that anyone living on a desert island who had never received any religious education is immoral. Most humans are naturally moral.

You can tell humans who have been well brought up by how polite they are, how much they respect the views and feelings of others, how they try to avoid being rude to other people, and how tolerant they are. Many of these things are taught to humans by a process of socialisation and education.

The special days are all celebrated by different reasons. However you don't normally get atheists complaining that christians go to church on those days. You do get christians complaining that the rest of us should "they should also respect the true meaning of Christmas" and the same for Easter etc.

It's not enough to be a christian and see things a certain way. Everybody else has to see it that way too.

mathanxiety you said "Regarding killing, the New Testament is clear that the old law (OT) has been superseded."

Maybe so, but that means that 'nice christianity' has only been around since then and most of that time was an obscure cult, so it can't really take credit for the concept of not killing people.

Plus lots of christians actually quite like killing people, as long as they can justify it.
Most of the death penalty nuts in the US are staunch christians aren't they? And the KKK, very christian. Those "pro-lifers" that shoot abortion docs, in gods name usually isn't it?

Quite easy to twist to make a point isn't it?

Runnybottom, lots of people believe in an eye for an eye which is what it says on the tin. If you kill then you should be killed.

Lots don't and I am not defending the people that do this in 'the name of god'. Some people are quite confused IMO about what the rules really are. Me included.

EdgarAllenPoe, you said it. Trained. Leave a dog to be wild from day one and it would kill & eat you if hungry. This is my point, we were trained at some point in civilisation that killing is wrong. I believe it came from religion.

Oh and Claig, thank you, I wasn't sure if you were joking or not

You're disagreeing with yourself even. We don't kill each other because religion teached us not too. Except where it teaches us its ok. And we all disagree when its ok and when its not.
Not a fantastic source of moral guidance is it?

just to add a name into the whole religion/tolerance/atheists/being negative about other people's beliefs/morality thing here...
Salman Rushdie.

as an atheist, the fatwa situation is just

'Its no real surprise that christians like to appropriate everything they possibly can as their own. ' Laying it on a bit thick there?

'Plus lots of christians actually quite like killing people, as long as they can justify it. ' And again. Can you prove that it's something anyone likes? Or is this something you believe in without actually having any proof?

Here's a discussion of Natural Law from a Catholic pov. Here's another, from Stanford University's philosophy department. Onagar, you might find these articles informative.

nathanxiety, interesting Catholic article on natural law. The Stanford one didn't link correctly, it was the same Catholic one again

mathanxiety sorry typing too fast

Trying again.