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AIBU?

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Original poster

to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

585 replies

nickschick · 04/04/2010 21:18

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

OP posts:
claig · 05/04/2010 19:33

I am no expert on religion, I only know what I think is good. To me the Old Testament is worlds apart from Christ. I think some of the links may possibly be made up by the apostles to continue the thread, but I don't know enough about it.

Many societies have invented Gods. The Mayans had one who required gruesome human sacrifice. Not all Gods and religions are good. In my opinion some have better values than others.

onagar · 05/04/2010 19:37

Has anyone got a list of the wise sayings of jesus because I've read the bible and I don't recall all that many.

Certainly "do unto others" was a good one. A good rule of thumb when judging right or wrong.

The bits about turning the other cheek and only throw the first stone if you are totally innocent do sound good until you stop to think about them. If we followed those we'd disband the police force and close the courts. It's suggesting anarchy instead of society.

He was inclined to break local laws which is hardly a good example to the young of today.

What else did he say that was earth shattering wise? Someone jog my memory.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 19:41

is stoning people to death worse than pressing them to death/burning them at the stake/lopping off their ears/ripping out their entrails and burning them? Because those are the penalties for thought crime and refusal to toe the party line on religion OUR wonderful Christian culture featured until very, very recently. A few hundred years. Bugger all in historical terms.

claig · 05/04/2010 19:42

onagar read the New Testament it's not a huge book. It is packed with wise parables and teaching that you won't find the like of anywhere else.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 19:43

Christ said nothing of note which hasn't been said a million times bother before and after him. Nor is the only man ever to have died for his principles, if indeed that is what he did.

the rest of it is supernatural folklore - resurrection, divinity etc. It's all smoke and mirrors. Once you start looking in any detail at the Christian message there's really nothing there - hence all the "leap of faith" crap and blackmailing people with threats of eternal suffering. Nice.

onagar · 05/04/2010 19:43

Claig, if you don't believe jesus was the son of the god of the old testament than you might be interested in C.S Lewis's take on that

claig · 05/04/2010 19:50

Greensleeves, yes we were just like all other societies on earth. People were hung, drawn and quartered by the powerful. But it didn't continue. We slowly gained rights and threw off our chains. Even the people carrying out these crimes on us had a guilty conscience, because they knew what the teaching of Christ was. Our moral code, influenced by all of our great philosphers and religious thinkers all the way back to the Greeks, formed our thinking and has created the society that we have today. We didn't spring out of nowhere, our moral thought did not just pop into our heads, it is based on the thought of past generations. We are where we are today because we stand on the shoulders of giants. We will carry on changing and removing injustices and creating greater equality from our current base.

onagar · 05/04/2010 19:50

Claig unlike many christians I have studied the bible and read it (KJV) cover to cover many times in search of bits I might have missed. (you should try it. It's amazing the bits they don't read out in sunday school)

That is why I'm an atheist.

If you can't name one thing that doesn't surprise me. I think I just covered most of the wisdom of christ in my post.

claig · 05/04/2010 19:53

Greensleeves if you think that Christ said nothing of note which hasn't been said a million times before then you haven't understood what he said. The Muslims know that what Christ said was very profound, and they revere him and his teaching.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 19:57

no, the people who carried out those atrocities fervently believed that they were commanded to do so by God, just as those who enforce Sharia law in the Middle East do today. There is no difference bar a slight temporal advantage.

We "threw off our chains" when we dispensed with the symbiosis of Church and state that exerted a stranglehold on people's lives via the threat of both violence and damnation. Organised religion makes an excellent form of social control because not only does it oppress from above but it also conditions people to oppress themselves. Free thinking and religious conformity are not compatible, however hard to try to twist the facts to fit your chocolate-box view of your religion.

It's the extent to which a society has progressed from religious fascism to a secular culture which allows freedom of expression/worship which indicates how much judicial cruelty you're likely to find there.

claig · 05/04/2010 19:59

onagar it is years since I read it. I haven't got time now to start digging out passages for you. If you don't think it has any value, don't bother reading it. It sounds like you are too clever for it, you have got the good bits covered.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:00

I didn't say Christ wasn't profound or that he wasn't a great orator. He was clearly a charismatic man who spoke well and had the rudiments of a socialist mindset. I think he would be pretty horrified by the dogma and cruelty his adherents have extrapolated from his message.

He did, however, say nothing of note that had not been said both before and after him, by countless other bright sparks, many of whom also died for their principles. It's the supernatural folklore that the early Christians invented around him that sets him apart. It's a house of cards.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:05

Greensleeves we'll have to differ about where the secular society will lead to. I think it will lead to people being denied liver transplants, smokers being told to quit before they get treatment, feeding tubes being removed from brain-damaged people, do not resuscitate orders being carried out, vulnerable people suffering mistreatment in hospitals as highlighted in so many of the recent scandals. I hope you are right and instead it leads to a compassionate society, but I have my doubts.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:09

The supernatural folklore may be a house of cards, but the teaching isn't. It is that that will stand the test of time. Anyway, we will have to agree to differ.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:10

You believe that those things will result from a secular society because, as a Christian, you are prejudiced in your view of what secularism IS. To you, secular society means "godlessness" - an anarchic state of amorality in which nobody cares about anyone but themselves.

This is an insulting and ignorant set of assumptions. It proceeds out of the mistaken belief that anyone who does not share your faith lives in a sort of vaccuum, a state of spiritual impoverishment.

In fact you may find, if you opened your eyes and ears a bit, that there are plenty of compassionate, principled, decent uman beings who don't believe in God, the Holy Ghost, the flying spaghetti monster or any other Big Boss figure. We do the right thing - most of the time, just like you - because it's the right thing to do and we care about the planet and its other residents, not because otherwise Big Daddy will send us somewhere nasty rather than letting us into paradise

claig · 05/04/2010 20:17

I think you are very compassionate Greensleeves, apart from some instances of rudeness towards Christians. The difference is that I don't think that you and me count, however compassionate we are won't change anything. I think the people who aren't compassionate are the powerful people in charge. I think Christianity, as an organised force, to some extent holds them back, stops them going all out for it. I think they would like a secular society, like the Soviet Union was. Then they will have free rein and the compassioante people like you won't be able to stop them.

dittany · 05/04/2010 20:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:19

lol, and the "people in charge" in the Christian establishment are SO compassionate and altruistic and humble

you are kidding yourself, I fear

claig · 05/04/2010 20:21

it isn't a Christian establishment. The people in charge don't give two hoots about religion.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:21

You can't say secular society doesn't work because Soviet Russia was secular and look what happened there

that's like saying "marriage is dangerous, it leads to mass murder" because you've read about the Wests in a magazine

your posts continue to confirm that reall, you do believe that the Christian mindset is the only moral and decent one and the rest of us are just heathens who will destroy everything if we are not contained.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:22

They didn't in Christ's time and they still don't now.

Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:23

I don't see Christianity as a moral force for good "holding back" America's atrocious foreign policy, by the way. Quite the reverse.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:24

dittany I agree with you all those people in charge that you are quoting don't give two hoots about religion, they pay lip service to it, that is all.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:29

I think Christianity influences the public and serves as a restraint on those in charge. Not a very effective one, but still a restraint. Greensleeves I don't think that your beliefs will act as a restraint on them. I think that the Church with its belief in the sanctity of life will do a better job. I don't believe every last iota of it, but on the whole I think they are on the right side, God's side.

onagar · 05/04/2010 20:31

Claig if you see my previous post you will see that I have read it and studied it rather more than the average christian. It's been a while for me too (decades) since I read the whole bible. I do keep an electronic one on my desktop for checking bits out that people quote at me.

Thinking back it seems to me that I can't recall anything really impressive he said aside from the 'do unto others' thing. I feel sure that Christians who live their lives by his words would have at least one other to offer.

Of course none of it was written by him (if he existed) and the 'first hand accounts' were by people who were born after he was dead so not very first hand.

There were of course bits about how to get into the kingdom of heaven, but only useful if one believed it existed and if one wanted to get into it at all. Am now wondering what bits guide the lives of christians.