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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

585 replies

nickschick · 04/04/2010 21:18

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

OP posts:
Greensleeves · 05/04/2010 20:32

Christians aren't the only ones who believe in the sanctity of life - in fact their rich heritage as an organisation and a faith has a pretty poor record on valuing the lives of those who don't conform to its demands.

Most people care about human life, tbh, although we don't all use words like "sanctity" which tend towards the discourse of organised religion.

Christianity as a restraining force on the worst excesses of human nature - I see no evidence whatsoever of this and plenty to the contrary

when you are able to stop regarding Christianity as synonymous with morality/decency/spirituality, we might get somewhere.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:37

onagar, you've got me wrong. I am not a devout Christian, I hardly ever go to church. I don't live my life by his words. If I had time, I would study it more. The good thing about this discussion is that it has increased my interest in it, so when I get time I will start looking into it more. Then when I come across you again on another thread I will be more knowledgeable about it. My knowledge is limited at the moment. I only know that unlike many posters here, I don't think that it is evil, I think it contains much wisdom and beneficial teaching.

claig · 05/04/2010 20:44

Greensleeves I think Christianity is moral, decent and spiritual, but I think you are as well, and you are not Christian. I think you are misrepresenting me. I think that the combined power of the Church is greater than the combined power of you and people who believe what you believe. That is why I think they do a better restraining job than you would be able to do. I think they will be able to fight for the rights of vulnerable and downtrodden people across the entire planet better than you can. But we disagree on this.

Kaloki · 05/04/2010 21:14

"I think that the combined power of the Church is greater than the combined power of you and people who believe what you believe"

Fine, I can accept that. However the church isn't responsible for all good things, and is in fact responsible for a lot of bad things. They may be in a position to stand up for people's rights, doesn't mean they do.

But we've swayed from your point of it being Christians who have done the most good here, as opposed to humanity or British values.

SolidGoldBrass · 05/04/2010 21:38

Just a quick post in the interest of equality to say that I regard Islam as ust as much a load of old toss as Christianity. The same goes for Judaism, SIkhism, Shinto, Wicca, Vaudun and the rest, if I haven't mentioned your brand of mythology please forgive the oversight and rest assured that I think it's a load of old toss as well.

As to why the Christians get the most bashing on MN, it;s because Christians, or at least some of them, generally make the biggest pests of themselves in demanding special privileges for their brand of superstition and insisting that other people take their nonsense seriously. As/when/if representatives of the other brands pop up demanding the right to discriminate against women and gay people, or the right to burn books, shut down pubs or execute anyone who disagrees with them then they can have a dose of 'take your ridiculous superstitions and stick them up yoru arse as well'.

claig · 05/04/2010 21:45

Kaloki, I think the church has done loads of bad things but also some good things. But the church is only a human institution and that is why it is not perfect.

Thinking about it more, I think that the church is important for the following reason. The church has always been responsible for moral teaching to the public. I don't have great faith in human nature. Without some sort of moral compass, people can do very evil deeds. Regularly we read about people kicking people to the death in the streets, stamping on people's heads, yobs making life a living hell for disabled people, to the extent that the mother sets fire to herself and her disabled child. This disgusting behaviour is because these people no longer value human life, they have no respect for others, they feel no guilt and no shame. All the restraints on their behaviour have been removed. I think that the moral education that the church provided reined some of these people in, messages such as "love thy neighbour as thyself", "do unto others as you would have done unto you", values such as mercy, charity etc. were drummed into them when young and helped many not to carry out these evil acts. You, Greensleeves, onagar and others don't need this moral education. But there are millions who do need it, and without it, they will create havoc. The church is the organised force that has in the past provided that moral instruction. If the church's power declines, I think we will see a rise in the breakdown of society as many people lose their moral compass.

While secular people may be more moral than many religious people, I don't think that a secular society has the same hold on the majority of the public in terms of moral education as the church had. That is why I think it will be a bad thing if we become a secular society and religion dies a death.

Kaloki · 05/04/2010 21:56

Unfortunately Claig, a lot of people use the teachings of the church to justify their awful behaviour. So the church isn't this wonderful healing thing. Morality is something seperate to religion. It is possible to be moral and non-religious, just as it is possible to be amoral and religious.

Giving religion to someone inclined to ignore basic human morals isn't going to turn them into an angel, just give them a new outlet for cruelty.

I don't think the church has any influence in the moral compass of the general public, for good or bad.

claig · 05/04/2010 22:07

I thank that hellfire and damnation was a means of scaring the public and controlling them, trying to steer them clear of committing sins such as murder etc. It worked for centuries but has now lost its hold.

gaelicsheep · 05/04/2010 22:34

My goodness this is still going strong! I still feel the point of my argument is being missed. Which is that we as a society are who we are because of our heritage, pagan at first and then Christian. That much is undeniable and I cannot understand what could possibly be gained from sweeping it all away. The Christians took over pagan festivals, those Christian festivals are gradually being supplanted by secular meanings. That doesn't matter - it's natural evolution. It's why anyone feels the need to completely start again that I cannot understand. It reeks of Communism and Big Brother to me - it would not end well.

TiggyD · 06/04/2010 10:37

If christians want us to remember the true meaning of easter, why do they make it so hard to buy big bits of wood and nails on the sunday?

troublewithtalk · 06/04/2010 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaloki · 06/04/2010 11:51

claig Ah yes, threatening people is such a good way of doing things

Also, it didn't work. Show me figures that show crime rates dropping which correlate to a belief in fire and brimstone and I'll agree, but I very much doubt it.

claig · 06/04/2010 12:18

Kaloki, threatening people does work. That's why they make laws. The number of people wearing seat belts has increased because there are penalties if you don't wear them.
It will be interesting to see what happens as the social moral controls, used over centuries, disappear.

runnybottom · 06/04/2010 12:39

Claig you are horribly offensive to atheists, you do realise that?

Kaloki · 06/04/2010 12:45

Threats of fire and brimstone aren't the same as threats of fines etc.

One is tangible, one has no proof of existence.

I'd say society has more morals now than in the past. There is less discrimination, more charity, less animal cruelty, more awareness of the world around us. And I do not see the church having influenced that at all.

claig · 06/04/2010 13:04

"Claig you are horribly offensive to atheists, you do realise that?"

runnybottom, I don't realise that at all. I have many friends who are atheists. I don't think I have made any rude statements about atheists or atheism. I think atheism is a very valid belief. I have never said that what I believe is right, it is just what I believe.

I think you have been insulting to me when you said
"Claig you are unreal. Absolutely unreal, insulting, superior and deluded."

amd in your dogmatic view that the opinions of others are nonsense

"Your religious stories are myths that don't make much sense to the rest of us. We are allowed to say so, you are so precious about it that you think everything is an attack."

Maybe you could try to be a little less judgemental and show some charity to others.

runnybottom · 06/04/2010 13:10

Your constant barrage of how everything thats good is Christian is deeply offensive to those of us that aren't. Your seeking to own everything positive about my country and my history and my culture and making me and us other is offensive. You have said over and over that your way is the only way and that christianity is responsible for everything that is good. It is not, and never has been.

To me your religion is myths and stories. Please enlighten me as to why I am not allowed to say so. Thats not dogma, dogma is your area, not mine.

Christian charity I suppose?

claig · 06/04/2010 13:22

you're allowed to say whatever you like and be as rude as you like. I don't seek to own everything positive about your country. I think our country has been benefitted from the Christian religion, but I have said that many bad things were also done in its name. I haven't said that my way is the only way, I have said that I am not even a devout Christian, but I believe Christianity does have good values. But I don't think that people who are not Christians are not good people and do not do good things and do not have good values.

I think we agree that it is not the case that
"christianity is responsible for everything that is good. It is not, and never has been."

"To me your religion is myths and stories. Please enlighten me as to why I am not allowed to say so"

you seem to be under the misapprehension that I am trying to stop you saying whatever you like. As to enlightening you, I think it is best if you try and enlighten yourself.

runnybottom · 06/04/2010 13:24

I am enlightened. Apparently far more than you are.

scaryteacher · 06/04/2010 13:25

Runnybottom; much of what occurred in the history of this country has been driven by religion - the break with Rome; the dissolution of the Monasteries weren't just driven by Henry's need for a son, or greed, but by religious reformers who wanted to move away from the idolatrous practices of Rome and towards a more direct relationship with God. That is why the Queen is the Defender of the Faith and why the Church of England is the established church, and therefore Christianity the established religion in the UK.

The laws in this country are based directly on the Decalogue, as is much of the Welfare State, so like it or not, Christianity has had a huge effect on how we live our lives from an historical perspective.

It's not just YOUR country and history and culture, but OURS, and that 'ours' will include Christians, Wiccans, Humanists, whatever. People of many different beliefs or none have had effects on how we live today and that should be acknowledged.

Your constant barrage of anti Christianity is getting wearing and you come over as very strident. I don't care what you believe, why do you get so het up that others believe differently to you?

runnybottom · 06/04/2010 13:30

unreal.
Your religion stops the rest of us from our daily business, and I'm the one who needs to acknowledge others?
{hmm]

I suppose you have trouble seeing anything from a non-religious point of view, the indoctrination from an early age has skewed your perception so much.

claig · 06/04/2010 13:49

runnybottom, why is our religion stopping you from carrying out your daily business? There are no rules to stop anybody in this country worshipping as they please. Other faiths can build temples and mosques and all of their values are respected. Our country is a tolerant historically Christian country that respects the rights of others to do as they please.

brightyoungthing · 06/04/2010 14:01

I spent all day yesterday with no milk and low on electricity due to the shops being closed. Oh how I moaned about Easter...untill I went for a walk to the High street and found shops open!!! Lots of milky coffee and electric heating on full blast followed and a heartfelt "Thank God" !! Seriously though, I don't believe in God but respect those that do and if that means the shops are closed now and again then thats fine by me. We have enough time to prepare and stock up, unless you're a nurse like me and work 24/7 (and no extra money on Easter day!!)

scaryteacher · 06/04/2010 14:12

'unreal.
Your religion stops the rest of us from our daily business, and I'm the one who needs to acknowledge others?
{hmm]

I suppose you have trouble seeing anything from a non-religious point of view, the indoctrination from an early age has skewed your perception so much.'

Read my post very very carefully. Where does it say in there that I have any kind of religious belief, let alone a Christian one? Just because I happen to think you are being rude and unwilling to acknowledge that Christians and others have had a huge influence on the UK doesn't necessarily mean that I am religious, just that I know my history.

runnybottom · 06/04/2010 14:22

Have you misunderstood the entire point of the thread, claig? the fact that your religion can close down our shops for their beleif systems?

I know my history too, and a lot of it is wound up in Christianity...from a political and cultural viewpoint, I'm more than willing to acknowledge that. Not in the way claig seems to think though, with her offensive assertions that the morality, culture, and values of the country and its people is solely down to the teachings of her prophet.