to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

[nickschick]

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

greensleeves, I wish I could be as optimistic. As a Humanist I will fight till my dying breath for such a liberated return to rationality. Unfortunately more and more people are fighting a far bloodier battle in the name of mediaevalism and god.

Oh goodness, it took over 300 posts for Catholic priests to be mentioned. Isn't that a miracle in itself? .

I don't give two tosses what other people believe, when they shop or where they work but "ridiculous fairytales", "irrational nonsense' and "Religion renders its follower infantile" is bloody insulting. Shame you can have a discussion on this subject without resorting to the above.

I think it's growing pains though mrscrock. Societies progress gradually from earth-worship and sun-worship through polytheism and monotheism - maturity lies out the other side, if we don't all blow ourselves up in the process

I think that most shop workers are so pissed off in general that the only death they are interested in is that of the customer.

My shop only ever closed christmas day. I always quite enjoyed working on easter sunday as it was always so quiet. No annoying customers to bother me.

no, actually we can't have a discussion about this, not properly, if Christians retain the special right to slap a D-notice on ideas they find offensive. Discussing the way in which Christianity infantilies and corrupts the believer is central to the debate. Personally I find many, many Christian assumptions both offensive and disturbing. I'm not too keen on the ritual flesh-eating and blood-drinking either, neither was I filled with rapture when my 5yo came home with a picture of Christ nailed to the cross which he had coloured in for Easter.

This is a grown-up debate, not a seminar for sensitive Christian adolescents. You may get offended. Tough.

Love the idea that the church has brought about equality for women.

That's more of a fairy tale than the one about about the loaves and fishes.

omagar, are there any other non-Christian non-European cultures that instituted it?

Greensleeves you're such a wonderful breath of fresh air.

Rockbird when did the world revolve around the need not to 'offend' you? And why are your beliefs exempt from criticism? I have a feeling that you are unable to answer those questions but I would be welcoming of an attempt.

I can't think we get so many religious threads around Ramadan, do we?

Anyhoo...this is where I stand on the whole religious festival thingy.

As an atheist, always have been parents are too, I completely respect people's right to practice and follow any religion they see fit. I think that if you believe that something makes your life better then it probably does. As long as you don't condemn others for not believing and refrain from preaching to try to convert I really don't see the harm in religion.

Silly spouting nonsense like religion causes war is pointless, man causes war and religion is just one way to divide man. Without religion man would still divide and wars would still happen.

YABU - maybe he's secular? And he's certainly entitled to his opinion.

claig are you for real? If so, I seriously suggest you do some research about the actual heritage of these islands (let's start with Stonehenge). And your comment about no Christian fundamentalism existing may be true now (although I think some parts of the US could do with a little enlightenment) but may I refer you to Queen Mary, James I et al? Do, please, have a look at their record of tolerance; equality; etc. I think that's part of our Christian heritage.

Also, with regard to our pretty churches, I think you'll find many of those were built on sites of earlier religious worship and who knows how pretty those sites were?

onagar - you beat me to it! Equality for man maybe and that's questionable, frankly.

I strongly believe that all the major world religions are inherently sexist and demeaning to women - even Buddhism.

I don't really understand how any free thinking, modern woman can bear to be a part of these religions but I would defend her right to do so with every breath in my body.

I certainly wouldn't die for a woman's right to be a part of religion. What a strange position for a non-religious person, especially one with such passionate belief in the 'inherently sexist and demeaning' nature of religion.

Come on, let's see this 'rights' business for what it is. Yet another paper-thin and imbecilic defence of the indefensible.

mrscroc I was using hyberbole to demonstrate my belief in freedom of speech and religious worship. It's not unheard of.

Though technically Claig the Germans do meals and giftgiving on Christmas Eve instead of Christmas Day. We used to go to Spain at Christmas to a hotel with lots of Germans who were always confused the British were still at it in the morning!

Didn't know that about the French but the Spanish like a bit of New Year too,they shovel grapes in their mouth on the bells (heimlich manoeuvre anyone?!)with Christmas presents at Epiphany.

Have I just gone off on a random 'International Christmas and New Year' thread? I think I have...

BelleDameSansMerci, it is a long thread and you may not have read the whole thread.
I agree with Kaloki that her religion, the Druids, sun worship, Stonehenge etc. were all here before Christianity. I am saying that Christtianity is now the majority religion, the prior religions are now the minority. I said that popes, the Church and kings were corrupt and used Christianity for their own purposes e.g. HenryVIII, James I, Mary Quuen of Scots etc. But slowly the injustices of these rulers were challenged in large part to the revoultionary teaching of Christianity where the meek shall inherit the earth, where no one is superior to anyone else in God's eyes. Brave people who really believed in such things were prepared to challenge kings. Cromwell and his puritan faith took on the Catholic king and we had an English Revolution long before the French had theirs. Many injustices were carried out by churches and rulers in the name of Christianity, but people challenged these injustices using the revolutionary teachings of Christ.

I agree the Church used existing ceremonies and existing holy places and supplanted them with Christian ones in order to win over the pagan majority. But the Church is just an institution and there are different competing denominations all vying for supremacy. The Church is not Christ.

All major religious institutions may be sexist but it is in Christian countries that our rights have developed to what we now have and will continue to develop. Christian tolerance allowed these ideas to flourish. Other religions are not so tolerant.

Oh my god, I don't generally like to get at the believers, but Claig has got me ROFL! Christianity has brought tolerance to society? WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA HA HA HA HA!

Two words.... Spanish Inquisition.

An that's just one example of many of hw 'Christian tolerance' has shaped the world today.

Do you think the ancient Britons changed from paganism to Christianity willingly? Snort! They were forced, same as pretty much everyone else back in those times.

May I point out how offended I am at the implication that justice and tolerance are under the sole juristiction (sp?) of the Christians.

claig, I'm not the expert on equality for women. All I know is that despite laws to get equality for women the church still treats them as inferior. I suggest you post in the feminism forum that you thought religion promoted female equality and they will set you right.

gaelicsheep "Seems a bit of a miserable and joyless pov to me. Do you not celebrate Christmas at all (genuine question)?"

Not sure if it was aimed at me, but no, I don't.

claig Just because something happened in a country with Christians in it, doesn't mean that the other religions or atheists weren't involved. We may not be the majority, but we still do exist, and we still have a say (thankfully).

belledames "I strongly believe that all the major world religions are inherently sexist and demeaning to women - even Buddhism."

Really, that's interesting about Buddhism. THough it makes sense, religion is man made (before anyone argues, who do you think wrote the bible? Who held the pen?), and seeing as women have only gained more equal right recently, it's guaranteed that all religions are slanted towards the creators.

And as a Jew, Claig, I'd like to point out that my religion is far more tolerant and less sexist than yours. And Buddhism is about the most peaceful and tolerant religion around. Your sweeping generalisations about other religions are VERY offensive, and blatently incorrect.

Beveridge, yes you are right for the Germans presents are given on Christmas Eve. However, even the term "Santa Claus" comes from the Dutch "sinterklaas" and the Dutch speak a low-German dialect and are a Germanic people, and we call them Dutch which is a corruption of Deutsch.

Incidentally I have always been fascinated about Germanic influences on Scotland. You use the word kirch for church, which I presume comes from the German Kirche. Do you know if the use of kirch was something that was introduced by Anglo-Saxons or did it exist prior to them?

Hmmmm... I absolutely agree that the church is not Christ. Couldn't be further away sometimes. I also don't doubt that Christ was a real person/teacher and certainly think the message he preached was a good one. What I don't understand (and this probably isn't the place for this question really) is why the message isn't enough. Why did he have to be the Son of God? We don't even know that he claimed this - we only have reports given some time after the events.

I don't agree, though, that real Christians are in the majority in the UK/England though. I think many people will put "CofE" when asked for religious affiliation but actually doubt that many of them do worship.

Apologies if I skip read and missed the historical points. It is a long thread and I'm "benignly neglecting" DD while trying to stay on this soapbox.

AnnieLobeseder, I have seen many TV programmes where Jewish women are not allowed to get a divorce from their husbands unless the husband grants them that right. Is that not the case?

Did anyone actually read claig's last post properly?

Sorry... post before last.

Claig - every religion has its religions nuts, including Judaism. And yes, that's true of the Orthodox Jews. I seem to remember the Catholics aren't too hot on divorce either.

No religion is perfect, it's your apparent belief in the moral superiority of Christianty that's got me spitting feathers.