to be cross with my elderly fil about the meaning of easter

[nickschick]

Bit tongue in cheek really.

FIL was today bemoaning the fact that he couldnt go to tesco for his cigar supply as they were shut for Easter.

Its only Easter he said they could have had usual Sunday hours ,its not like Christmas or anything.....

ONLY EASTER?????? i SHOUTED - JESUS DIED ON A CROSS FOR US!!!! EASTER IS MORE SPECIAL THAN CHRISTMAS - YES EASTER IS IMPORTANT.

and that sais dh is why you should never discuss religion with a catholic especially not one who sat in a cold church for an hour and a half last night at the easter vigil.

Why not gaelicsheep? Everyone else has to use annual leave. I can't get to see family anyway, no public transport, fat lot of good the day off does me.

Come on then girls... grab yer wellies

Beveridge, when Cromwell came to power, his puritan values caused him to ban Christmas for a number of years. But it came back. It is a tradition that the people wanted. Reverend Ian Paisley is against dancing, just like some Muslims are against music, which is why Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)gave up music for many years. These are different beliefs. What we have eneded up with now is the culture and traditions of the country carved out over time. The traditions themselves are not too important religiously, it is Christ's teachings that are important. But the traditions are important culturally because they reflect our history.

Seems a bit of a miserable and joyless pov to me. Do you not celebrate Christmas at all (genuine question)?

if we are going to have common holidays that reflect the shared values of our society, how about starting by identifying what those common values actually are, rather than Christians trying desperately to squash everybody else into a pre-existing mould, accompanied by dire threats of society drowning in a sea of godless consumerism if we don't toe the line?

National Children's Day, for example?

Shockers - no raincoat required, but it's bloomin cold. Think I'd better take DS outside for some fresh air though (brrrr)

You can't have a special day for all as most people work in jobs that need to run 24/7. This only applies to a few shop workers and isn't really for their benefit anyway. It's always been about protecting the right of christians to make others do things their way.

How would christians feel if we had that special day as someone suggested on April 1st and made the shops close to help the poor shop workers? I suspect that wouldn't do at all.

What on earth is the point of reinventing the wheel?

what is the point of "reinventiang the wheel"?

well, do you care about society celebrating its broadly shared common values, or not? Is it just a cover for wanting things to stay exactly as they are because YOU don't mind knuckling under to Christian dogma?

it's only "reinventing the wheel" if you think the current system functions adequately and fairly (ie, wheel goes round and round)

if you aren't either a Christian or totally apathetic, it's a square wheel and yes, we certainly do need a new one

"Do you not celebrate Christmas at all"

gaelicsheep, it's going so fast I don't know if you meant me then. Just in case I will say that we have always had a fun/happy xmas without needing god or christianity in it.

It's probably not that much different from most 'christians'. I assume that they go to a service for xmas (I bet most don't in fact have time) but then they do the same things as we do. All the pagan rituals with the tree etc, but because they are fun in our case and not because of religion.

Honestly if I were christian that would make me uneasy you know. I mean it must be sacrilegious mustn't it. I think I've been told that Muslims don't do many of those things for that reason. That it would compromise their faith. I guess if so it means they take theirs more seriously.

Reality, I'll take that fawning, though I'm not the one walking 100k

shockers, I was having a little trouble articulating my thoughts. She was saying that one should not say such things as "god does not exist", as a non-beliver you should say that you believe it to be true as it is offensive to her to say it is fact. My point was that this is rather flaky and that if I believe it is true (ie, fact) then I shouldn't need to be adding "i believe" onto the start. I don't think that every time she talks abotu Jesus, she starts with "I believe" or "It's only my opinion, but"...she sees her beliefs as fact, yes?

My point was, if you believe in god, if you are a christian, if you have had this religion all your life, you should be able to say that you see it as fact, no?

This thread is moving too fast for me

Greensleeves,

I didn't say that equality and fairness and justice are exlusively the products of Christian ideology, I am suggesting that their development in our European societies are in large part to Greek thinking such as democracy etc. together with our Christian heritage of love, fairness and equality etc. I am suggesting that our sense of fairness would never have developed in a society run by the Mayans, because those ideas would never have flourished due to their strict religion. Women's rights, and many of our other rights, developed in our European societies, which were all Christian. These rights are now becoming universal and are being spread by Western countries. Our religion played a major part in that development. Other societies with different religions did not develop those rights, but they had many people with just as much common sense as we had. Common sense on its own will not change things, the base and earth has to be fertile for common sense to be able to grow and flourish.

"extreme forms Christianity is every bit as fascistic and bloodthirsty as any other belief system"

maybe it is, but I don't know of any such extreme Christian societies existing on earth.

One of the common defensive cries from the religious is 'how dare you disrespect my beliefs'.

Genuine question: When did beliefs require respect?

Humans do. Beliefs do not.

You want to believe in irrational nonsense? Good, no one can stop you. But you will never be able to defend them with the cry that they deserve respect from the world.

Religion renders its follower infantile.

greensleeves, yes yes yes to your post of 14:27.

I find this thinking quite a lot. From friends who are Christians, from religious callers door to door. That kindness, morality and good thinking comes from religion. That because I have no religion, I must therefore have no moral code, no sense of ethics.

in historical terms it's really a very short times since the entirety of Europs operated under fundamentalist Christian laws every bit as violent and repressive as anything you could cite from the Middle East. Not to mention scourging their way through the rest f the world spreading the Good News (and measles) with the aid of heavily armed troops, rape, pillage etc. Mass burnings, massacres, torture - every form of terrorism you can think of has been done in the name of Christ. Often, and recently.

Christianity is not the source of enlightenment and gentleness you are portraying.

gaelicsheep, they want to reinvent the wheel because they are not Christians

this "inventing the wheel" thing is oddly useful in fact - it illustrates the breathtaking arrogance inherent in Christian attitudes. By using a wheel as symbolic of the Christian way of doing things you are proposing that all other belief systems are faulty/superfluous and yours is perfect, functional for all and that dissenting from it is pointless pedantry.

Unbelievable arrogance. And not terribly tolerant or compassionate either.

"Christianity is not the source of enlightenment and gentleness you are portraying."

are you saying it is Islam?

Claig, yes but we had been banning Christmas for ages in Scotland before Cromwell did it in England, which was only between 1649-60 (if my memory serves me).

It carried on long after in Scotland, my grandparents got their presents and a special lunch on New Years Day instead (and my grandma was still doing this when I was little)so arguably in Scotland it's more traditional not to celebrate Christmas and instead celebrate New Year. Depends how far you go back though, of course but then you run into the pagans.

So yes, winter festivals always will out (it's dark cold, there food, drink and fire - what's not to like!)but not necessarily on the 25th December.

Personally, I like New Year better as it has more tradition associated with it up here. But that's a Scottish, not an English, Welsh or Northern Irish custom.

no, I think all of the abrahamic religions are equally blunt-headed embarrassing anachronisms which will naturally peter out as societies mature. Despite the wails and teeth-gnashing of the brainwashed myopic stragglers who cling to the wreckage

We like to sacrifice goats.

Do you curry them?

Beveridge, the English are Germans (Anglo-Saxons), we are sassenachs, and share many German beliefs, which is why Christmas, Weihnacht, Silent Night etc. are so popular. The French are like the Scottish and New Year's Eve is far more important than Christmas.

...so bugger all to do with god then