to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Don't you just love radical atheists who are determined everyone agrees with them?

Yes different beliefs should be taught in RE but i do not believe in teachers/TA evangelising, I am a Christian but would never do that i keep myself rather private.

Like Spacehopper Jasper, my goodness very narrow thinking, what would she say if people were to rubbish athism in the same way Yes you have your views but you should also respect others to talk in a respectful way.

I'm a Christian - and a serious, go every week, have a homegroup I meet with every week, spent 2 years at Bible College type one (though I don't agree with everything I learned there and became something like a thorn in their sides with my questions).

And I think that State Schools should be secular. I, personally, don't want my kids exposed to the trash peddled as Christianity in most state schools, including the one my kids go to ("Oh NOO! Mum we had the minister for assembly today!!! - my kids know church is FUN!)

I think that Christianity does itself a HUGE disservice by allowing itself to be part of school "Acts of Worship" - which are usually crap. As do most religions - a 30 min slot in school is never going to convince anyone, really.

Religion is the decision of parents. It is up to them, and them alone, what is taught with regards to what is "true". We try, honestly, to teach out children about "do unto others" etc - which they have never got in school.

But please - not all Christians are "anti-science" or the other things people are saying here. Dawkins is an exceptional evolutionary biologist and when my kids are old enough I will positively encourage them to read "The Blind Watchmaker". I totally believe in God. I totally believe in evolution. IMO God created by using evolution ... the 7 day thing is a creation myth typical of the time in which it was written!!

this thread is fun. i like the anti-religion rants. i could rant for days about religion, but accept that if some people need to believe something like that, then it is up to them.
schools in the uk mainly put a stronger emphasis on christianity, even if they dont mean to. some are a lot better than others. id have liked my kids to do GCSE's where they didnt just have two sets of questions, on christianity and islam. i would have liked to learn something about other cultures from my kids! i like hearing about other religions, because im sorry, im sick of hearing about christianity. nothings gonna change, next religion please...maybe i should move country. and stop working in schools. i just want to hear something NEW. tell me about buddism! tell me about random cults! tell me about JEDI!

I don't think YABU. Of course I'm American and all of our public (state to you I s'pose)schools are secular.

DH and I are both Christians, but we feel that the place to teach our son our beliefs is in our home. (And at church of course) Even then I don't plan on teaching it to him as fact, rather, "Dad and I believe (whatever it is), but some people believe such-and-such and it's up to you to figure it out for yourself."

It's interesting that our schools are secular and yours are religious, yet we've a lot more religious people I think. Hmm...

But no, I don't think YABU. You've got a right to what your daughter is taught, but could you send her to a totally secular school to avoid this?

piscesmoon - 'Your DC will be praying, singing hymns and asking help from a higher being in all state schools-it is the law'

Actually, ds tends to sit or stand quietly, without taking part in yer actual worship. It's the law that his school conduct such shenanigans. It's not the law that he actively participate.

He's present & polite, just as he is if his CM takes him to her mosque.

I'd vastly prefer for schools to be secular, for considerably more knowledge about comparative religion to be taught from an early age, & for that to then develop, at secondary, into a secular but sympathetic subject to be called something like 'Moral Philosophy & Ethics' & which encompassed RE, IS, PSHCE...

OP, YABU to think your dd has a right to a secular education - as the law stands. Clearly the law is an ass in this case.

Yes, the biggest problem is that DC are compelled to take part in a ludicrous waste of time every day when they have to pretend to talk to someone who isn't there and sing songs about how wonderful this non-existent being is. There are plenty of places you can take your DC to if you want them to do that.
Mind you, a lot of the trouble individual parents have with the peddling of crap in schools is that it's not necessarily part of the school ethos, it's some or other twat of a teacher or classroom assistant who is sneakily exceeding his or her remit to feed the DC nonsense.

It would depend too if the person in question were merely stating his/her own beliefs (which he's/she's certainly got a right to do) but to try to put them as fact or get the children to do so is annoying.

It's not quite how it was 30 years ago, though, SGB - I was caned for refusing to take part in hymn singing, aged about 8.

These days ds (5 1/2) just quietly daydreams through it - he was asked about not participating once, & said: 'But I'm not a Christian this week'

I think he was self-identifying as Muslim that week, although he's also been Buddhist - dh's influence - & 'my mum says it's all rubbish so I'm an atheist like my mum', between going back to devout Christianity under the influence of his teacher (who isn't actually a twat at all, but a good teacher & nice woman who's honest about her own beliefs).

It still makes me cross in principle - I'm very much in favour of secular schools - but having seen it in practice, the school's approach seems to be raising questions, rather than answering them - which I'm surprised to find myself OK with.

spacehopper are you a bigot? Not every Catholic is an abuser and why is your ire directed at Christianity all the faiths have some bad secrets hidden in their depths.

I haven't read the whole thread but have always been really surprised that the UK does not have separation of church and state. I mean, good grief, we (the US) got the Puritans and still managed to get it through.

Indeed. They're all best regarded with a healthy distaste scepticism.

It is quite usual for kids to be taken out of acts of worship.

I am a Christian and I think yanbu.

It is brainwashing. It is not unreasonable to call it brainwashing. If anyone repeats certain beliefs aloud in the company of peers... what else is it?

On the bright side, your dcs will probably be having none of it.

Odd from a Christian? No. I don't like brainwashing of vulnerable (young) people.

Of course when I said it was the law ravenAK, I meant it was the law that schools provided collective worship. The schools know perfectly well that you can't have a law about what people believe-a point that Spacehoppper should take on board. In many places the Head and teachers providing it don't believe in it and as I said earlier I doubt whether a single person has been converted to Christianity by a school assembly! I expect that most DCs are like your DS-all that is required is that they sit quietly and respect other people's views OR you have the right to withdraw them. He seems a very sensible child who is forming his own views.Most non faith schools will put in the words 'Christians beleive' before they start and at the prayer they will say 'if you want to make it your prayer-say amen at the end'and therefore DCs don't have to make it their prayer. Of course all that is too subtle for a 5 yr old.
If Spacehopper were to insist that her DC was a Catholic and MAKE him go to church every week and tell him he WILL believe, she would call that oppressive, but somehow telling he won't believe isn't oppressive! I don't see the difference.
You might get away with it when they are young, but it isn't possible to tell them what they WILL believe. You bring your DC into the world, you bring them up to follow your beliefs and you nurture them but you simply can't tell them who to marry, what party to vote for,what to believe in. You can try, and people do, but it will lead to grief. A mother as dogmatic and rigid in her thinking as Spacehopper would have sent me in the opposite direction-maybe she will be lucky and have a child who doesn't mind his parents dictating what he should believe.

I will print my favourite poem about bringing up children. I hesitate because it has religious overtones, but I haven't found a better one. If you leave out the words about souls etc and just go for the sentiment I think that it is a good message.
Your child is a free spirit and not your possession.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children
as living arrows are sent forth.
The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite,
and He bends you with His might
that His arrows may go swift and far.
Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
so He loves also the bow that is stable.

OP. You keep asking why your views as an athiest cannot be respected but you treat religion with utter disrespect.

'Feeding her this guff'
'Spouting this twaddle'

This 'guff' and 'twaddle' is what some people deeply believe, yet you dismiss it because it is not what you believe. It works both ways...

In my opinion, you will not be helping your daughter by dismissing as 'twaddle' any views that do not fit with your own beliefs. If you want your daughter to respect your beliefs, you might be better to teach her to be tolerant / respectful of everyone elses beliefs. If you encourage her to investigate, question all belief systems (including yours!), she will perhaps make up her own mind...

YANBU to expect the school to respect your wishes but you are being YABU to be so dismissive / rude about other people's beliefs...

Please relax, OP. This is just not worth getting so het up about.

IMVHO, it is crucial for children to be educated about a wide variety of systems/societies that humans have invented in order to live together. The Judaeo-Christian tradition has informed Western societies for a very long time now, and an understanding of its underpinnings will enable your child, as an adult, to gain perspective on that particular sort of human organisation and society.

Ignorance is not bliss.

Bonsoir: The Greek and Roman myth systems actually have about as much cultural influence as the Judeo-Christian ones, and there are stil plenty of bits and pieces of pre-Christian paganism well embedded in European culture. I'm going to be making sure I teach DS about that if his school start telling him that the Christian myth is the literal truth.

Sure, and capitalism and socialism also greatly inform our Western societies... we need to understand lots of value systems and to understand how they interact and conflict... and how our own family value systems fit into the value systems of the society around us...

I once did an assembly about Noah's ark.When I told the children that it was 'only a story' at the end of the assembly and that it didn't really happen the stalwart christian teacher nearly blew a gasket. Of course the children knew anyway that it wasn't true when they thought about it -how could it be? Some bible stories are cool and kids like them - Noah is anyway.It's a bit like 'life of Pi.' Aesop's fables in a similar vein. Kids will work it out for themselves in the end anyway.

I love how this thread has evolved. I still think YABU to think your DD has a right to a secular education, because there isn't one, the law doesn't provide for it. Having said that the school is being very unreasonable not respecting your wishes for collective worship if you don't want her taking part. I would ask if you can hear a third party opinion of a lesson from the vicar to see whether it is RI and whether they will be having a rabbi, an iman and everyone else to present what they believe as fact because that's the only other way to present it. I think children benefit much more fromhearing lots of people say I believe this, I belive that and realising they're all different than from being taught the basic tenets of each faith or belief system including atheism. But that's just my opinion.

YANBU op. I can see exactly where you're coming from finding this unacceptable. The total lack of secular schools shows the government does not respect the views of a large % of the population. All you can do is request that your dd be removed from all religious elements of the school day, and taught christianity as a story that some people believe. I'm hoping the law will have changed by the time my dd is old enough to go to school.
There are quite a few petitions about this on the government website that it might be worth thinking about signing. Here is one: petitions.number10.gov.uk/secularschools/

Sorry, link here: petitions.number10.gov.uk/secularschools/

They're not stories though - they are belief systems and should be respected as such, all of them, including atheism, Wicca and Jedi. Just because you personally believe one thing does not mean your children shouldn't be exposed to other options as living, breathing, real beliefs exemplified by people. That's tolerance and equality, not subliminally equating them with fairy tales by calling them stories. It just shows a fundamental lack of respect for any belief system beyond your own no matter who that view is held by.

I have no objection to my dd hearing about other religions. However I would like her to hear about hem all equally, none of them presented as "right" or given more focus than any other. If Christianity had no role outside of RS lessons then I'd be fine with it.
I think the belief system is the rules which people live by (e.g. "don't cause unnecessary harm" or something like that). The stories which tell the history / give examples of these rules in action are just that - stories. I have no problem with these stories being told, but I don't think they should receive any greater focus that any other stories, expect that the teacher might want to start / end with saying that some people believe this.