to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

Try not to worry Tin, your little girl will grow up to be her own person and believe/not believe what feels right for her, regardless of what she is told in school. And you, as her parents, have a stronger influence on her beliefs anyway.

I hope this is remotely helpful!

Jx

I'm not sure that I am really concerned about my children becoming Jewish or Buddhist or whatever because they heard about it at school and it appealed to them.

What does bother me is that they are going to grow up believing that the state teaches that religion is more worthy of respect, attention and support than other forms of cultural and ethnic diversity, as I am very much opposed to the special status given to religious perspectives in society.

Lol at smallorange "shine Jesus shine" prob vv true always rebel the other way from whatever ur opinions are!!!

I'm with you tinnitus I was brought up a catholic and now an athiest and am v concerned about the religion praying hymn element in schools. I know this is my hang up and one I will have to cross when dc start looking at faith!

I did a level Re at catholic school and did study other religions but hymns and praying at assembly is exactly what I don't want!

I don't think urbu at all.

' let alone "secular" schools jumping on the God train.

There are no secular schools. C of E is the state religion-the Prime Minister chooses the bishops-the Queen is head of both. UK is a Christian country-most people don't notice until they come across it at school (they seem to have forgotten their own school days)and then they are shocked. Until you get disestablishmentarianism it won't change.
I fail to see why your DC should follow your views spacehopper-because 'mummy says so' -perhaps your DS won't think it nonsense-he isn't a clone! (He probably will- but that is up to him-censuring what he hears shouldn't be necessary)

I am a christian and it is what I choose to believe.
I sent my daughter to a community school beacuse I felt it was my job to educate her on my faith not a schools.also a community school gives a really wide rantge of cultures and opinions that I think it is good for her to grow up around.

I also work in schools doing assemblies and lessons but these are always ' what christians believe easter is' not 'this is the truth about easter'. I agree that as a nation we need to learn about all religions but that none should be made an act of ' worship' in our school ( including christianity).
My dd's school are fab and treat all religions from and educationa point of view and treat all religions with respect and I appreciate that .
one school I go into has a thinking time instead of a prayer where they think about something they have talked about which I think is a really good idea
vicars from a local church can go in but they must do it from this is what christians believe perspective.
so YADNBU

YADNBU, I loathe the way schools keep on peddling this ridiculous bullshit as well. I'd suggest a good counterbalance at home, pointing out (for instance) the history and meaning of the festivals called 'Christmas' and 'Easter' and how they are adapted and renamed depending on who won the last battle for territory. You could also tell your DC about the similarities between the various myth systems, what they signify to people (the cycle of birth, death, new life etc, celebrations of fertility, marking the turning of the seasons). Prime DC with awkward questions to ask numbnuts superstitous classroom assistants or teachers overstepping their remit (loving the example of the mechanically minded kid pointing out the nonsense of the Noah's Ark story; DS' dad, when very young, got asked to leave SUnday School for asking 'BUt what about the dinosaurs'?). Keep encouraging DC to question mythology peddled as fact, and once they are old enough, don't be shy of pointing out the appalling history of misogyny, homophobia and bigotry associated with all superstition.

This thread is enlightening...I wondered why my little un was coming home with all this stuff when I thought I had sent him to a non religious state school.

Our school newsletter is also full of promotional stuff for the local church which i feel in totally inappropriate...it feels like free advertising to a target audience to me....if I see anymore on 'messy church' I'll scream

Instresting thread. I totally think there should be non faith schools, just as there is various faith schools but then I see UK is a Christian country so I kinda see how it goes that way. Hmmm... maybe 'Athiest' schools need to be set up then, for whoever wants that. But then you get C of E schools... why would they call them that if all 'other' schools are C of E anyway?

YABU
Homeschool if it is such a big deal

There is a big difference between respecting a person's right to believe bullshit ie not grabbing them on the street at random and yelling 'There are no gods', nor writing rude words on the doors of their temples - and being expected to 'respect' whatever bullshit it is ie not laugh at it or state when asked that you know it's nonsense.

Spacehopper5, for how long WILL your DS follow your views?

I'd much rather my DC made up their own mind about everything.

Tinnitus, you have a right to ensure your DD has a secular educatoin, but YABU to expect a British state school to provide it.

Even though I have chosen to send my DD to a church school, I do feel for you, OP.

If I want to be respected as a member of a church, then you, having specifically asked for a secular education for your DC, should also be respected.

And, yes, culturally, we are a Christian country (note points about anti-disestablishment) but from an educational point of view, you have been specific in your requests, so I think another word with the Headteacher or a letter to the Governors.

Well said, SolidGoldBrass. To your "don't be shy of pointing out the appalling history of misogyny, homophobia and bigotry associated with all superstition", I would add the appalling (recent) history of worldwide systematic child-rape by Catholic clergy.

If a school taught my DS that 2+2=5, I would remove him, as they are clearly teaching things that are not fact. Similarly if his school taught him to spell "elefant" or "Americka". I would also be shocked if he was taught, as fact, that the world was flat, or that the sun revolved around the earth, or that aliens built the pyramids.

I would also question the merit of any educator who chose to teach as fact that there is a magic bloke in the sky who created the whole world in a week, watches everything you do all of your life (so if you did any bad stuff, like have sex before marriage or be gay or blaspheme then you are going to hell for eternity), and can perform miracles of such magic that he is truly omnipotent, yet chooses to allow untold suffering on Earth through famine, plague, war, disease and natural disaster. There is as yet no evidence for the existence of this bloke, and it is irresponsible for any school to teach this as fact.

I for one, am now paying over ten grand a year to send my DS to the only secular school in my area, where I can trust the teachers to teach only facts in the classroom.

snobear, that's YOUR facts, not universally agreed facts. But good luck in how to spend your ten grand

Spacehopper: science doesn't disprove religion.
And yes, because a minority of Catholic priests have turned out to be child abusers, we shouldn't respect others' beliefs

Snowbear, you say "I would also question the merit of any educator who chose to teach as fact that there is a magic bloke in the sky who created the whole world in a week, watches everything you do all of your life (so if you did any bad stuff, like have sex before marriage or be gay or blaspheme then you are going to hell for eternity)"

Yes, I would too and I send my DC to Catholic schools. They have never been told any thing of the kind.

bloody norah...

i love the "DS WILL follow our views" line....

i am not religious. nor is DH.(we have read the God Delusion by richard dawkings so cant be

but i wouldnt impress pro or anti beliefs on my kids. they will believe in whatever they want, and be their own people. being exposed to differing beliefs isnt a bad thing is it? realising that some people do hold those things dear and respecting peoples differing opinions?

we used to have religious assemblies at school as a child,i think at the most, all it does it teach people to think about others. its not indoctrinating them.

or is it just about "me" now and sod everyone else? is that what we should be teaching? that only our own belief matters and sod the rest? that you will worship at the school of what mum says goes?

YABU.

I'm a humanist and I'm bringing up my children as humanists too. I don't mind them being exposed to Christian worship at school.

I think getting them to think about why so many people need to believe in something which patently isn't true will teach them a lot about human nature - our egotistical insistence that someone just like us created the universe and everything in it.....

Would love to see secular schools set up with special funding. You'd have to prove you never went to church, weren't married in one and haven't baptised your children in order for your kids to stand a chance of getting in.

Respecting others' beliefs means allowing them to believe what they want without fear of persecution, providing it does not interfere with others' rights.

It does not mean allowing them to teach my child something that I believe is a highly destructive and fantastical as a fact when it isn't.

I'm happy for my children to be taught what others believe but not to be told what to believe themselves.

Anyone interested in starting a campaign to remove the compulsory act of Christian worship from state schools?

Jasper...

The existence of God is not a universally agreed fact. Nor the resurrection of Christ, heaven, or hell.

Many universally agreed facts are taught in schools, such as plate tectonics, the billions-years history of life on earth, the make-up of the solar system, and the impossibility of a virgin giving birth (before the invention of IVF technology).

Facts, as we know them, are rigorously tested by science, until disproved (which they sometimes are). Better than YOUR facts, my friend, which are based on belief, not evidence.

Teach children what we know, not what we believe.

But schools do teach what others believe, and aren't told what to believe themselves.

Don't they?

Or is this just my DCs schools?

I agree with you that all education should be secular. The act of worship nonsense is outdated and should be outlawed and public funding should not be directed towards religious schools