to think that my DD has a right to a secular education

[Tinnitus]

Two years ago my DD came home to tell EXP and Me about the "true meaning of Christmas". We are both atheists and had purposely sought out a non religious school and so we were perplexed. We took every opportunity to explain that this story was just that, a story, not the literal truth.

Inevitably DD soon started on about the true meaning of Easter and so I made an appointment to see the headmistress of her school. By the time of the appointment I had learned from DD that it was a classroom helper who was feeding her this guff and not a teacher, and I felt a quiet word would suffice.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that not only was the helper indoctrinating DD, but the local evangelical church held monthly assemblies with the children. Indeed it turns out that every school in the country must be affiliated with a church of some type, but is not obliged to brand themselves thus. The head mistress was courteous and obliging and agreed to my request that the brainwashing of DD stop. I made no demands about her education other than She does not come home spouting twaddle.

Two years on and she is beginning to again to talk about Heaven, Hell, God and the Devil. But she has no idea who Adam and Eve were. When I "tactfully" quizzed her about this I discover a local CofE vicar has been regularly talking to the children about his faith, but without emphasizing that it is only his own opinion. Worse still, He has had my DD praying in class.

I have asked the school to live up to their earlier agreement as calmly as I could.

AIBU

And for what it's worth, I also agree all schools should be secular (apart from private ones)

But TBH, it wouldn't bother me if my DC school happened to be Jewish or Buddist or Quaker.

@ LynetteScavo

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask them to live up to an agreement they made two years ago, they had the opportunity to say no back then.

Less than five percent of the UK population attend church regularly so as one of the taxpaying ninety five percent who don't the "state school" argument is a non starter.

As I have said, I want her to be taught RE. but she is seven and adults are standing where her teachers should be and telling her things that are unprovable in an educational environment. She is taking it in as fact and I'm not happy.

I have pointed out about Women getting blamed for all sin and she didn't like the sound of that, so I think She is as armed as a seven year old need be. but why should she have to run the risk of being the "disruptive one"?

I've spoken to her teacher and asked that they consider broadening the spectrum of influence and get other faiths in, but also that they ensure nothing is stated as fact unless it can be proven. this is after all a school.

My main question is why don't they respect atheism like other beliefs?

Spacehopper, my point was that you said "and people have the nerve to demand "respect" for others beliefs? What, the belief in institutionalised child abuse?"

So some Catholics are child abusers and you're not going to respect anybody's religious beliefs?

YAB a bit U You said your were atheists, however you are imposing your views on your child. It is good for children to learn about other religions so that they can make an informed decision about what they want to do later. What if your dd decides she wants to be a Christian, would you stop her because that was not in line with your beliefs! I gather that at school they might also talk about other faiths and festivals too e.g. Diwali, Eid, Roshananna, Christmas. Its good for children to have a broad range of knowledge not just one narrow view.

titty why don't humanists set up secular schools? Can they not get the govenment funding that faith schools get if they don't have an act of collective worship. You can't need to have Christian worship to have a voluntary controlled school as not all are Christian .

Even the nuns in DCs schools manage the 'some people believe' line and they learn about all faiths (isn't it on the curiculum?) so ordinary teachers should be able to manage. Ironically I think that you might have a more balanced view of religion in a voluntary controlled faith school as RE is taught by people who are half decent theologens and know their subject well thus avoiding any gushing evangelicals teaching that the bible is a literal truth and ardent atheists spouting that science disproves religion because Noahs ark was too big or all Christians believe in creationism.

yabu
if you are so bothered about your child being brainwashed, how do you explain the millions of atheists amongst adults who have received a similar education?

Tinnitus...your last post is vastly more reasonable than your OP. You have convinced me YANNU

Yes I do also agree that the school should uphold your wishes, and if any parents are not happy they could ask to have their child removed, but for those parents who are happy with their dc to learn about religion than there should be a choice. God and Jesus may be a story and made up to you but is very real to a lot of people!

'Ds WILL follow our views -

Whatever you think and whatever the arguments are there, is one thing for absolute sure and that is that you can't dictate what your DC thinks!!! It isn't your gift and you are on very dangerous ground if you think so.

All anyone can say is 'this is what I believe or this is what x believes. You can't possibly tell your DS what he believes.
He will be very easily led if he lets you do it. One whiff from mother of 'Piscesmoon WILL follow my views' would make me do the absolute opposite from a very young age (I was a very meek child).
.

Yup, 'tis sadly true - the current system bends over backwards to make every "choice" available to parents except that of a secular education.

And yet a secular system is the one which makes the most sense for all kinds of religious people as well as atheists, as it prizes no one religious system above another and therefore allows for total freedom in religious worship.

Go figure.

Sorry-should have said 'and I was a very meek child' so I can't see many putting up with such overbearing parents!

If you want secular schools then you need to join the secular society religion in schoolsand do something.

The humanist society set out your rights here

snobear, I am not a child.
The non existence of God is not a fact either. I teach my kids to have an open mind , and to do so they need to be told the God stuff to assess it as truth or crap.

Keep spending your thousands on reinforcing your "facts"

Our vicar has just ordained a young man whose parents had your views spacehopper-he took himself off to a service at the age of 11 and told the vicar at the end that he wanted to be a vicar-and he was eventually.
I daresay your DS will follow your views but it will be his choice-all you can do is tell him that they are your views, you can't tell him that they are truths in the same way that a vicar can't tell him they are truths'. Your DS will make up his own mind-and you can't stop it. If you are bolshy, like me, you would do the opposite if a parent told you what you had to think! I don't believe in telling a DC that you have to think this 'because Mummy and Daddy think it'.
I took all my DSs to church from a very young age and they have all stopped going-they stopped at around the age of 8yrs.This doesn't bother me in the slightest. I can't possibly say 'Mummy believes in God therefore you WILL believe in God'-why on earth should they? Why should they vote for the same party as me-not eat meat because I don't etc. If I was to think that God was a fantasy story I can't for the life of me see why they should think it because 'Mummy says so'!!

As we've wandered off topic I'll join in!

Personally I want my children to have an education with a religious background, as I am a firm believer in the general ethos of religious belief. I went to a religious school and certainly grew up able to know my own mind and believe most children will too. Schools may talk about religion but it isn't as if they are teaching creationism over evolution (unless you are tlaking about certain Academies!) so it isn't going to harm their academic education.

I do take umbrage at the vehemence expressed towards religious views and those who hold them. I wouldn't class myself as religious but certainly see more ignorance directed towards religion and religious people than I do in the opposite direction. I think it is naive to state that the world's troubles prove that religion is ill-founded, equally naive to believe that the world's current problems can be placed at religion's door. But that is a whole other thread!

@ LynetteScavo

Wow, an atheist with a convert, Thank you. I know I'm ranting here a little but I have been reasonable and measured with the school.

@ pigletmania

I'm sorry but you've misunderstood what atheism is. it is not the absence of religion, I am not waiting for the right god to come along. I already have a set of beliefs and nobody here would question a Christian or a Jews right to bring their child up according to their beliefs.

So again, why don't people respect atheism as they do other beliefs?

or, yea, lets tell our kids what YOU believe. There is no God.

Or whatever. Expensive viewpoint

OP - there is one silver lining in this - at least your dc is listening and taking in stuff that she learns at school so hopefully that extends to other stuff they do there too...

I am discovering a whole new side to Christianity through the eyes of my 4yr old ds1 who hasn't been exposed really to Christianity other than the odd wedding or christening.

He came home this evening telling me that a man had come to tell them all about the real story of Away in A Manger and did I know that 'baby Deejudz had grown up in a whole year and had been made deaded by a very naughty boy who used to be quite good and the four Y2 children who had to stand up in assembly and hold a piece of paper out for a long time'

However they are doing fairy tales as their half term theme at the moment and he hasn't yet got the distinction between the two in the same way that an adult would so haven't tried to explain yet...

very interesting lik pisces thx.

I do still believe that despite all the arguements put Timmitus is NBU to expect school to honour her belief system and implement the actions they had previously discussed.

I would expect this too and it is only at an older age thaT children can look at the different religions and decide what is for them untilthen they have to be led by the teachings of the adults they are influenced by, be that parents, schools or grandchildren.

I would expect that whilst religion is studied that praying to a god or allah or whomever you decide your higher being is not appropriate in a communal setting where people had differing beliefs.

There are faith schools if you wish your children to pray, sing hyms ask for help from a higher being, attend one of those rather than state school.

I do not wish my DC to go to a faith school and that is exactly the kind of teaching that i am trying to avoid. Rightly or wrongly!

Tinnitus I am not saying that you are waiting for god, and respect your views that you do not believe in any relgion of any sort. I was saying that your dd will have her views on athesism from you, but shouldnt kids learn that there are people that do believe in god and that it is real for many people, so that they can make an informed decision later on. Yes in conjunction atheism should also be taught too as it is good for children to get a broad undertanding of beliefs.

Your DC will be praying, singing hymns and asking help from a higher being in all state schools-it is the law. Because it is the law you have the right to withdraw them. I do think that all schools should make it clear from the start and then there wouldn't be the confusion of people thinking their child is at a secular school-they are not.

"Ok, lets put it this way: I have the utmost confidence in ds, as a well-rounded, informed and educated individual to survey these various moronic "belief" systems and come to the conclusion that it's all an enormous crock of twaddle, guff and nonsense."

Spacehopper, I am a 'well-rounded, informed and educated individual' and haven't yet come to a conclusion either way, this doesn't make me any less of the above. I think your forcing him to agree with your point of view is just as questionable as an overly religious parent forcing their views on their offspring and to protest otherwise would be hypocritical. I wouldn't insult your 'belief system' and find it bizarre that you think it is acceptable to critise that of others so crudely. I speak as an undecided who veers towards a basic religious belief despite all leanings towards 'scientific' rationale.

@ pigletmania

Yes of course, I've already said I am happy that she gets RE,(religious education) but this is RI, (religious instruction), as it comes in a form the kids cant tell apart from fact.